Shot a bareshaft at 40 yards...what does this mean?

[jmez]

BS hasn't worked for me with Hoyt bows. Bowtech CPXL, once I got it bareshaft tuned, it shot any and all BH's the same and the same POI as FP's. Since then I've had a Carbon Element, Carbon Matrix and currently a Carbon Spyder turbo. Any of the Hoyt's If I have a perfect BS tune the BH's hit left. I've had to BH tune all of the Hoyt's.

I've used FMJ 340's, 300's and FMJ injexion 330's. All cut to 28 inches with 125gr BH's. All shoot the same. ST mags, Magnus BH and VPA three blades.

Right now I'm shooting the Spyder turbo. At 20 yards my BS is about 1.5 inches R of a fletched shaft. My BH's are right with my FP's to 60 yards. It only takes 1/2 a twist in the yoke to bring them together, when I do that my BH's hit left. Take the twist back out and it is good again. I shoot BS, fletched and BH's every day.

It makes sense to me in that, just like the fletching, the BH is going to have an effect on arrow flight. Not every BH is going to effect flight the same.

 

[Brendan]

All of this has me wondering if it's the way you tune a bow, because there's multiple ways to do it. For example, with a Hoyt you could have centershot at 13/16, 3/4 or 11/16 - and still tune it to shoot correctly, you'd just have varying degrees of cam lean. I'm wondering if there's a "Sweet Spot" for each bow where the bare shaft and the broadheads fly the same due to the relationship between lateral nock travel and where your rest is, where the cable guard is, flexible vs. fixed cable guard, etc... I could see spine indexing and making sure you have an arrow spinning perfectly true playing a part too.

My experience has been mostly Hoyts - Carbon Spyder Turbo and Carbon Defiant Turbo most recently, and broadheads are shooting dead on with field points after bare shaft tuning. Checked it again today - bare shafts out to 30, broadhead at 50.

 

[jmez]

I'm sure it the way I tune and shoot and how the geometry of the bow interacts with all of those factors.

There are so many variables that go into tuning and shooting a bow I'm of the opinion that there is not one single "best" method that works for all bows, arrow/BH combinations and people shooting them. If that were the case then you ought to be able to put one in a Hooter Shooter, tune it and never have to touch it again.

 

[Dameon]

I set center shot to 13/16 and bareshaft tune at twenty yards. My top cam is usually advanced close to an 1/8th. My field points, broadheads, and bareshaft group at 20 and 30 yards. I practice everyday in my backyard at twenty or thirty yards and keep a bareshaft in my quiver. As long as it keeps grouping with my field points, I am good to go.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Finch]

So I had a little more time and shot some again today from 20 yards. My fletched arrows grouped pretty well and the bareshaft impacts to the right and the nock is left of the point (if that makes sense). So my fletched are hitting the target like this " l " and the bareshaft consistently hit the target like this " / " and to the right of the fletched shafts. So at 40 yards, I can see how the tail end of the arrow comes on around causing me to hit my target completely to the right.

Also, I realize you can drop your arm or move your bow out of the way to see the shot BUT I think you can also see the arrow's flight while having good form and a good follow through. At least I can. Not saying my form is perfect by any means but I can see the arrow most of the time.

 

[Beendare]

Bareshafting is a good way to dial in your setup, but past about 25-30yds even a tiny breeze can screw you up giving you false results.

BH tuning tells you the same thing and gets you there faster. Rest adjustments are clearcut. Plus with BH tuning if tiny adjustments your rest dont bring FPs and BHs together it tells you its either form or bow cam/ string adjustment.

 

[Brendan]

Finch - I'd try tuning it out if that's consistent. Being that it's an Elite - you can't yoke tune, just move the rest, nocking point, or get into shimming your cams differently. Assuming you're right handed, I'd move the rest 1/16" to the right and re-test. Big caveat - there's a huge thread over on AT that would tell you to move the rest in the opposite direction, that's never worked for me on my bows, but keep an open mind if your adjustment makes it worse. Pretty easy to re-set the rest to your existing center shot or test out what happens moving it the other way.

And - because we're going back and forth on BS vs. BH tuning - might as well shoot a couple fixed blades at a longer range and see where they're impacting as compared to your field points. Just make sure you're using arrows that spin true first.

BH tuning tells you the same thing and gets you there faster. Rest adjustments are clearcut. Plus with BH tuning if tiny adjustments your rest dont bring FPs and BHs together it tells you its either form or bow cam/ string adjustment.

Different strokes for different folks. BS tuning gets me there faster and small adjustments show changes in arrow flight much more visibly than BH tuning allowing me to do it at shorter ranges and fine tune things better

But, in the end they do the same thing - so try both and use whatever works....

 

[doverpack12]

So I had a little more time and shot some again today from 20 yards. My fletched arrows grouped pretty well and the bareshaft impacts to the right and the nock is left of the point (if that makes sense). So my fletched are hitting the target like this " l " and the bareshaft consistently hit the target like this " / " and to the right of the fletched shafts. So at 40 yards, I can see how the tail end of the arrow comes on around causing me to hit my target completely to the right.

Also, I realize you can drop your arm or move your bow out of the way to see the shot BUT I think you can also see the arrow's flight while having good form and a good follow through. At least I can. Not saying my form is perfect by any means but I can see the arrow most of the time.

Assuming right handed you have 3 options and possibly a fourth depending on what the first 3 tell you. No particular order on these 3. First move rest left a very small amount at a time like half of a line tick mark value see if it helps but don't chase it more than 1/8 inch. You can try going right but honestly all that will do is push your point farther right and your tail will stay left where it is. Second you can rotate your cable guard farther away from the arrow which will increase the load on it. Third you can rotate your grip a little counter clockwise with the pivot point being the top right below the shelf so just a little bit of the bottom of your hand touching the grip will move right on the grip. The grip adjustment is minor and will cause the arrow point to move left in relation to the bow when at full draw (try it and watch your point move side to side). Really try to feel where the bow grip is applying pressure to your hand. If the three options above do not work and your fixed Broadheads stay right the entire time and cannot close the gap then it's draw length but we will save that discussion for after you try the three above. If left handed simply reverse each of the 3 I covered above.

And you are positive came are perfectly in sync and draw stops hit identical? These have to be exact with almost no tolerance maybe a playing card thickness if you can't get it any better but that is max allowable. If not fix those first.

 

[5MilesBack]

Different strokes for different folks. BS tuning gets me there faster and small adjustments show changes in arrow flight much more visibly than BH tuning allowing me to do it at shorter ranges and fine tune things better

I guess it depends how much room you have. I BH tune at 60 yards to start with. Even a "smidgen" of an adjustment makes a big difference, and it dials in quickly. If 20 yards was as far as I could shoot, then BS tuning would probably be quicker because even with BH's and FP's together at 20 wouldn't guarantee them together at 60. It's kind of like the quality of a bullet hole through paper. There are varying degrees of so-called "perfect tears".

 

[Brendan]

First move rest left a very small amount at a time like half of a line tick mark value see if it helps but don't chase it more than 1/8 inch. You can try going right but honestly all that will do is push your point farther right and your tail will stay left where it is.

Lots of disagreement out there on this one - my experience has been the opposite. I'm wondering if it comes down to cam system or rest. A thread on the topic here:

Broadhead tuning help needed

and another

Let's talk broadhead tuning!!


From Shane / OT7:

No sir. That would be incorrect

Broadhead hitting right is the same as bareshafts hitting right or a tail left tear.

You would move your rest towards the Broadhead.

I tune hundreds of bows and I am hear to tell you that what you may have been taught is completely wrong.

I can say this with 100% confidence since I have never had a bow that I couldn't shoot perfect broadheads

 

[Finch]

Thanks guys, ill report back in a day or so with my findings. Don't have much time now as I'm working nights and sleeping during the day.

Don't forget about me as ill check back in. Thanks

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[DWhitt]

Lots of disagreement out there on this one - my experience has been the opposite. I'm wondering if it comes down to cam system or rest. A thread on the topic here:

Broadhead tuning help needed

and another

Let's talk broadhead tuning!!


From Shane / OT7:

Always move the rest TOWARD the bare shaft....In this case move the rest to the right toward the riser to correct tail left (or bareshaft impacting right and Nock left). Theres only one right way of correcting arrow flight. If you didnt want to move the rest anymore inside say you were at 3/4 on the center shot I would shim the top cam away from the riser...either one will correct your problem...

 

[MattB]

As to the topic at hand, IMO bare shafting at 40 yards is folly for 98% of archers because their form is not good enough to isolate what the arrow is doing.

Interesting topic on tuning. If the BS/FBBH is hitting to the right of the FP, I've always moved the rest to the left and I've always been quickly able to get FP's and FBBH's to hit the same spot. My rationale is that the FBBH hitting to the right is an indication of misalignment with the bow's delivery. It isn't intuitive to me that, if the FBBH is catching air and the POI is deviating from the FP, moving the rest in such a way as to cause the FBBH to catch more air would correct the problem.

 

[DWhitt]

if the bare shaft or fixed blade is going to the right of field point thats the same as a laft tear...you correct a left tear by going toward the riser (right hand shooter)

 

[Idaho Brad]

Take this into consideration:
When bare shaft tuning, one must put tape on the back of the arrow to simulate the weight of the vanes. If you shoot 3 fletch and those veins weigh 10 grains per, wrap tape where your veins would be glued on to the effect of 30gr. If you BST without it, your spine will weaken when you fletch those arrows resulting changing the tune of that arrow.

 

[Finch]

So I have an update. I haven't had a whole lot of time to shoot but I made one hell of a discovery. This is something I've always heard but now I'm a definite believer. I just walked back in from shooting a few arrows. I indexed the bareshaft that went crazy on me the other day and I can now consistently shoot it straight and accurately into the target at 20 yards (while my index marking is up). When I nock the arrow with the marking down, the BS goes ape shit and wants to veer to the right and almost gets sideways before entering the target. I'm confident that is one reason it completely missed the target at 40 yards the other day. I've always heard about spine indexing arrows (I used to float them in a tub with nocks on both ends to find the stiffer side - debatable method I know) but I've gotten out of that practice. Anyway, that baeshaft only likes being nocked a certain way on my string and I'll be finding that sweet spot on all of my arrows.

I have another revelation thanks to Brendan. I've been broadhead tuning wrong for YEARS. I've always referred to the Easton's tuning guide and a specific post on AT and both appear to have bad information. The links Brendan posted helped me discover this. A quote from that post is below. Also, a pic of the easton tuning guide is attached. I would eventually get my BHs and FPs to hit together but it didn't come without a lot of frustration. I've always believed to move the rest to chase my FPs with the BHs. So BHs hitting right of FPs, I'd always move the rest to the left and vice versa. I'd just so happen to be correct with my adjustments on a high or low miss but I was doing the complete opposite of what I needed on left/right adjustments.

Broadhead impacts left of field point- usually means right tear through paper- Fix is move rest left, or add twists to right yoke and remove twists from left yoke.
Broadhead impacts right of field point- usually means left tear through paper- Fix is move rest right, or add twists to left yoke and remove twists from right yoke.
Broadhead impacts low of field point- usually means high tear through paper- Fix is move rest up, or move nocking point down
Broadhead impacts high of field point- usually means low tear through paper- Fix is move rest down, or move nocking point up

View attachment 52751

 

[5MilesBack]

I've never really followed any guides. I adjust and if it gets worse, I do the opposite. Adjust until I'm where I want to be.

 

[doverpack12]

So I have an update. I haven't had a whole lot of time to shoot but I made one hell of a discovery. This is something I've always heard but now I'm a definite believer. I just walked back in from shooting a few arrows. I indexed the bareshaft that went crazy on me the other day and I can now consistently shoot it straight and accurately into the target at 20 yards (while my index marking is up). When I nock the arrow with the marking down, the BS goes ape shit and wants to veer to the right and almost gets sideways before entering the target. I'm confident that is one reason it completely missed the target at 40 yards the other day. I've always heard about spine indexing arrows (I used to float them in a tub with nocks on both ends to find the stiffer side - debatable method I know) but I've gotten out of that practice. Anyway, that baeshaft only likes being nocked a certain way on my string and I'll be finding that sweet spot on all of my arrows.

I have another revelation thanks to Brendan. I've been broadhead tuning wrong for YEARS. I've always referred to the Easton's tuning guide and a specific post on AT and both appear to have bad information. The links Brendan posted helped me discover this. A quote from that post is below. Also, a pic of the easton tuning guide is attached. I would eventually get my BHs and FPs to hit together but it didn't come without a lot of frustration. I've always believed to move the rest to chase my FPs with the BHs. So BHs hitting right of FPs, I'd always move the rest to the left and vice versa. I'd just so happen to be correct with my adjustments on a high or low miss but I was doing the complete opposite of what I needed on left/right adjustments.



View attachment 52751

For a few years now I nock tune all of my arrows before fletching them to find the best flying index position on each arrow.

 

[Finch]

For a few years now I nock tune all of my arrows before fletching them to find the best flying index position on each arrow.

Do you typical shoot them thru paper and/or shoot them as bareshafts with your FPs?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[Brendan]

Finch - glad it worked out for you. A couple things from my perspective:

Regarding moving the rest: I have no idea why some people say chase the broadhead, and others say move it the other way (Doc's thread from about 10 years ago on AT is the one that gets a lot of people confused, but I've seen threads and posts being adamant the each is right) The way I posted above has always worked for me, but I'm open minded it could be the reverse in a scenario I haven't personally encountered. If something's not working - just try the opposite!

Nock indexing - It can definitely matter, especially on arrows that are .06" tolerance as opposed to .01". The better arrows will have less variation. If you can shoot a bare shaft accurately - no need for any type of spine indexing although it can speed things up. Just twist the nock 1/4 of a turn at a time for any flyer and re-shoot. Experiment with smaller turns if an arrow is still hitting outside of your group. I've started numbering all of my arrows and will be shooting them all as bare shafts before fletching them so I can make sure that I put the cock vane in the right place.

I personally have stopped using paper. I can shoot a fletched and a bare shaft even at a range of 5-7 yards in my basement and compare the angle of the two. Once it's too close to see a difference - I take it to the range and shoot at 20 yards, then 30, then 40 when I'm feeling dialed in...