What is wrong with outserts?

[mfllood3800]

I am hoping Beendare and Brenden and others will chime in.
This post is not to argue, but to discover what you learned that I haven't, in regards to skinnies, which I am assuming is focused on but not limited to the outserts.?
I will lay out my process which may be why I still like them and haven't had any issues (Yet ) ??

I didn't want to keep derailing other peoples threads.
I keep seeing this pop up from guys with way more experience than me, but no details that I have seen, have been given, which leads me to believe it is an opinion. I am curious to the facts behind the opinion, so I can form my own.

I'm not new to archery, been shooting 36 years and do all my own building tuning etc.
Killed a ton of big game, though not as many as some, but plenty none the less.
I have shot hundreds of shaft / component variations thru out the years.
I will take manufacturers recommendations and often stretch or altar just to see what does and doesn't work in my bow, that is not normal.
PSE Full Throttle 28.62" DL at 73 lbs shooting a 500+ gr arrow. This cam system hits harder than most and has led me to shift to the heavier side of most spine charts by some small amount. I will almost always use a 250 or 300 spine with my FOC choice.
I checked my FOC last night and again, right now I am at 16.8%
Initial paper tune, walk back tune, then broad head tune with little no adjustment at this point.

I have really liked the skinny arrows and SS outserts from BEA. I have shot other skinnies from other companies and am liking BEA at the moment for consistency and quality.
I don't use the alumn outserts that come with these shafts, as they are manipulated quite easily, and fit poorly. So I use the SS outserts, and I always have to rub a minute an mount of the shaft to get the ss outsert on.

My normal shots out west where it is always windy is 60 yards up to 100 yards and average of right at 75 yrds.
I don't shy away from long shots at all.
I really feel this is what led me to the skinny set ups with slightly higher foc, for how and where I hunt.

.
I always get the heavier SS outserts and use a custom rubberized glue that holds incredibly well, yet wont go brittle.
I take the time to pre weigh every component, set in groups, so when done I have a consistent weight and true spinning set up.
I spin test at every step..............
-initial inspection of pre cut shaft
- final cut (s) on shaft
- after fletched
- before/after outsert is glued
- final broad head assembly

I square all ends of shaft incl outsert if needed (have yet to have to do this with SS outserts)

I have over a thousand shots and many of these shafts and still using them today.
I frequently check the spin, to make sure the components have not shifted.

I shot a brand new iron will vented broad head the other day, and gouged the edge of one of the blades, I thought for sure my outsert would be off. These iron wills are stout. But the shaft still spins perfectly.
I have not lost an outsert in any of my block targets, or animals.

So with all that said, tell me please, what you discovered about outserts and skinny's you guys don't like.
I value the opinions of some guys, and have realized long ago, just cause I don't agree, doesnt make them wrong. I may just not have been in the same scenario yet, or taking a different process.


Sorry for the long post, but trying to eliminate conjecture , assumptions and offer as much info to help avoid issues wasting your time..
Thx guys

 

[PathFinder]

Most of them are extremely fragile and bend at the drop of a hat. Part of it is poor choice of materials (303 SS and aluminum), part of it is poor design (diameter necessitates the outsert sticking way past the shaft, subjecting it to more torque). The BEA outserts you're using are about the only ones I haven't screwed with in the last month. I've been testing their ability to stay straight, and survive hard stop impacts. So far Zelors will survive the hard stop impacts, but struggle to stay aligned on the shaft. Valkyrie's system is as near perfect as I've found. Just need to find a shaft that can match it. Check my post for the destructive testing results on a VAP TKO. Gold Tip, Easton, and Victory's factory outserts all failed miserably in my testing.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

 

[Beendare]

If they work for you....then fine

I shot the Bemans for many years in the 80's- 90's and back then the shafts were fantastic...but the components were crap. I do think its a flawed system the way stuff goes together.....makes it tougher to get perfect concentricity.

I know there have been improvements ...but guys I trust; Brendan, Mez and a bunch of guys around here I shoot with have thrown up their arms and dumped these skinny shafts. Whether its due to being too much work to get them right....added cost...or crummy components....I think its a combination of things.

EDIT; I didn't mean to speak for anyone else...it seems to me we have talked about these skinny shafts and are in agreement...maybe not.

I can tell you back many years ago we got really good at tweaking those outserts at shoots to get them straight [a PITA]

 

[Brendan]

Here's my experience. Basically - I love them in concept, hate them in execution, so far anyways. My experience has been with Gold Tip before I started messing with Deep 6 inserts instead, and then moving back to 5mm arrows.

First - I had a bitch of a time getting them to spin 100% true. Way too many "Culls" even though I was fairly OCD about the process. The arrows would turn out great, measure them on a spine tester, test runout on the end of the arrows with a dial indicator mounted to read the arrow on the spinner, square the ends of the arrows. But then, I'd always lose ~25% of them or more to wobble once I installed the insert/outsert where I'd never use them for anything but practice arrows, and wouldn't trust them with broadheads. I could prove that it was the insert/outsert and not the arrow by using the dial indicator. I had a dozen built by Jerry at South Shore Archery, and then built I think two dozen myself with the same result so I don't think it was just me.

Second problem was durability. Starting with the ones that would spin good - after a while they'd start to get damaged, and hang up pulling them out of targets on the edge of the outsert where it meets the shaft. Gradually - the arrows that used to spin good, would need a new collar, and sometimes those wouldn't spin well when I put them on. And forget about it if I hit something solid - they'd bend. Who knows, maybe I got a bad batch.

When I started thinking about it, the only significant practical benefit to a 4mm shaft is wind drift. And for me - if it's windy enough where it really makes a difference and I can't deal with it, it's probably a shot I shouldn't be taking. So, moved on to 5mm shafts and HIT inserts. Much easier to get a head that spins true without any fuss. (Hell, I was shooting at 70 today in decent cross winds with big, slow Gold Tip Hunters going 250 FPS out of a target bow, and had no problems putting them in the kill zone)

(Side note - there was a recent Kifarucast episode where Aron's opinion was the only one worth screwing with was Valkyrie, but I've never used those and I think you have to use their broadheads)

 

[mfllood3800]

If they work for you....then fine

I shot the Bemans for many years in the 80's- 90's and back then the shafts were fantastic...but the components were crap. I do think its a flawed system the way stuff goes together.....makes it tougher to get perfect concentricity.

I know there have been improvements ...but guys I trust; Brendan, Mez and a bunch of guys around here I shoot with have thrown up their arms and dumped these skinny shafts. Whether its due to being too much work to get them right....added cost...or crummy components....I think its a combination of things.

EDIT; I didn't mean to speak for anyone else...it seems to me we have talked about these skinny shafts and are in agreement...maybe not.

I can tell you back many years ago we got really good at tweaking those outserts at shoots to get them straight [a PITA]

thank you
I do have to rotate some of the SS outserts to get it to spin perfectly, then mark it and glue it. But this is done on all inserts,outserts , halfs etc I assemble.
I have to square the shaft prior to this like all others I do, and it seems to be good to go.

The alumn inserts sold with their shafts, IMO are junk. Not durable at all and designed to cut into the shaft if angled approach occurs. I bet I have 100 of these NIB.

Some of these are more work than some others, but for me I follow basically the same steps regardless and so far have had consistently great success..
Hence my confusion on the negativity on these.

 

[mfllood3800]

Most of them are extremely fragile and bend at the drop of a hat. Part of it is poor choice of materials (303 SS and aluminum), part of it is poor design (diameter necessitates the outsert sticking way past the shaft, subjecting it to more torque). The BEA outserts you're using are about the only ones I haven't screwed with in the last month. I've been testing their ability to stay straight, and survive hard stop impacts. So far Zelors will survive the hard stop impacts, but struggle to stay aligned on the shaft. Valkyrie's system is as near perfect as I've found. Just need to find a shaft that can match it. Check my post for the destructive testing results on a VAP TKO. Gold Tip, Easton, and Victory's factory outserts all failed miserably in my testing.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

Thank you I will check this out

 

[Trial153]

What he said ^^

The amount of upside in them isnt worth the trade off long term durability of the components.

I am not even sure there is enough upside to even measure in any practical or usable sense.

 

[mfllood3800]

Here's my experience. Basically - I love them in concept, hate them in execution, so far anyways. My experience has been with Gold Tip before I started messing with Deep 6 inserts instead, and then moving back to 5mm arrows.

First - I had a bitch of a time getting them to spin 100% true. Way too many "Culls" even though I was fairly OCD about the process. The arrows would turn out great, measure them on a spine tester, test runout on the end of the arrows with a dial indicator mounted to read the arrow on the spinner, square the ends of the arrows. But then, I'd always lose ~25% of them or more to wobble once I installed the insert/outsert where I'd never use them for anything but practice arrows, and wouldn't trust them with broadheads. I could prove that it was the insert/outsert and not the arrow by using the dial indicator. I had a dozen built by Jerry at South Shore Archery, and then built I think two dozen myself with the same result so I don't think it was just me.

Second problem was durability. Starting with the ones that would spin good - after a while they'd start to get damaged, and hang up pulling them out of targets on the edge of the outsert where it meets the shaft. Gradually - the arrows that used to spin good, would need a new collar, and sometimes those wouldn't spin well when I put them on. And forget about it if I hit something solid - they'd bend. Who knows, maybe I got a bad batch.

When I started thinking about it, the only significant practical benefit to a 4mm shaft is wind drift. And for me - if it's windy enough where it really makes a difference and I can't deal with it, it's probably a shot I shouldn't be taking. So, moved on to 5mm shafts and HIT inserts. Much easier to get a head that spins true without any fuss. (Hell, I was shooting at 70 today in decent cross winds with big, slow Gold Tip Hunters going 250 FPS out of a target bow, and had no problems putting them in the kill zone)

(Side note - there was a recent Kifarucast episode where Aron's opinion was the only one worth screwing with was Valkyrie, but I've never used those and I think you have to use their broadheads)

Were your results from BEA shafts and components ?
If so, Were you using the SS outserts or the included aluminum ones?

I certainly understand how the compromise can occur to create the wabble. I continue to check these every week after about 300 shots, or if I have a hit to another arrow in the block. Sometimes the arrow does get hung up, like you said trying pull it out and I inspect these keep shooting and verify the number on its fletching and look for different flight character. If it reveals a noticeable issue I go in and spin it up. So far with these SS outserts I have not had an issue................ YET

My concern with these SS outs is there is only 7/16" of surface contact with the shaft. The alumn ones do have more surface contact, but for me they aren't worth messing with.

Thanks for the replies

 

[mfllood3800]

What he said ^^

The amount of upside in them isnt worth the trade off long term durability of the components.

I am not even sure there is enough upside to even measure in any practical or usable sense.

Thx Trial...
this is what I keep hearing , well reading, on here from a few guys, but I am wanting to hear the specific reasons why. I am trying to narrow it down to :
- is it previous set ups with outserts from other manufacturers
- is BEA set ups included in this issue

Just trying to figure out why I have not encountered this after thousands of shots

 

[jmez]

I have tried a few different systems, VAP penetrator generation I and II, No limits Archery,( I think), Firenock outserts, and the Gold Tip system with the outsert/collar. I used them all with the 4mm FMJ's, except the GT which I had on the Kinetic Kaos arrow. None of them worked for me.

All my builds were the same. I cut my own shafts and then squared all of them on a G5 squaring device. I used Bohning Cool Melt to put the inserts in place. I was actually impressed with this stuff after I started using it. I never pulled or lost a single outsert while using it. Was also nice in that I could rotate outserts, which was a lot, with a cup of hot water. I would then spin them with both FP's and BH's. In all the systems I didn't have many that would spin true without twisting the outsert. I could get most of them to spin with time.

VPA's: these bent often. You simply can't keep them straight. Of the systems I used they were the easiest to pull out of bag targets. The type of target they are used in makes a difference. When shooting into a Morrel outdoor range bag I would bend a few every day. At one point I sent 26 of them back to VPA and said they may want to check their components because they weren't durable. They sent me 3 dozen new ones back that I still have in a drawer. If you miss the target, don't even bother checking them, just throw them away and put in a new one. Every animal I shot with them the outsert was bent afterwards. Most of them I put through critters and basically all that missed a target didn't just bend the outsert but broke the end of the shaft as well. Ruining both the arrow and the outsert.

No Limit Archery: I don't believe they make theirs anymore and they aren't even worth discussing. They won't spin true and they bent worse than the VPA's. Good concept, horrible real world results.

Firenock: These were tough to get to spin true contrary to what they say. Every one of these had to be turned multiple times to spin correctly. These are also hard to install with cool melt. Tedious and messy. They are also light so needed extra weight to be added with them. Best I could come up with was gluing set screws in behind them. This was a real pain and not worth the effort. I also had durability issues with these, they bend and break as well. Like the VPA's, when they bent badly or broke they broke out the end of the shaft ruining both the outsert and the arrow.

GT system: Bought 6 of the Kinetic Kaos arrows with their outsert and collar. I thought these would be a good deal and like the concept. Once again it took a lot of tinkering to get them to spin correctly. I did not glue my collars on the arrow, you don't need to. The BH or field point will hold them in place. These do not pull well from bag targets. They hang up every time and take a hard jerk to pop them out. After about a week of shooting them the collars were all broken/chipped at the tops and starting to peel down. I was going to replace the collars but could not get any of them off, including using a bench vice and vice grips. I cut one of them off with a side cutter and there was target material packed in down in between the shaft and the outsert. Basically locking them in place. These also bent just shooting them into targets. Not only were the outserts junk these are very fragile arrows, they break easily.

I messed with the skinny shafts for about a year and a half. None of the systems I used worked at all. I never used a SS outsert and those may be better. In that year and a half I didn't really see any benefits of the skinnier arrow. The whole penetration argument doesn't apply in a game animal. They will out penetrate a larger diameter shaft in a foam molded target that is stopping the arrows primarily by friction. Following a 1 inch diameter cut though a game animal I don't see how there is a benefit.

I didn't see any appreciable difference in my group sizes shooting them in the wind. In SD I get to shoot in the wind a lot. What I have found in the wind is that if it is so windy that my arrows are drifting off target it is too windy to hold the bow still for an accurate shot. I think that holding a bow still during stiff winds has far more effect on accuracy than the diameter of an arrow.

Like Brendan, I think it is a good concept with poor execution. When you have a long component that has a significant change in diameter at it's fixed point they are designed to bend. SS is likely much better than aluminum but I found no benefit in the entire system to try and find out. I think the skinny shafts are a solution searching for a problem.

 

[5MilesBack]

[h=2]What is wrong with outserts?[/h]

From my experience........they extend beyond the arrow shaft, that's what's wrong with them.

For more elaboration.......because they extend beyond the arrow shaft, they bend.......even stainless steel ones. It may not be a visible bend (much like FMJ arrows), but it does cause the arrow to wobble.

Also because they extend beyond the arrow shaft, they can put undo stress on the end of the arrow shafts on glancing hits and such, which can break or split the shafts.

I won't use them anymore because I haven't found one that actually works long term.

 

[jmez]

I certainly understand how the compromise can occur to create the wabble. I continue to check these every week after about 300 shots, or if I have a hit to another arrow in the block. Sometimes the arrow does get hung up, like you said trying pull it out and I inspect these keep shooting and verify the number on its fletching and look for different flight character. If it reveals a noticeable issue I go in and spin it up. So far with these SS outserts I have not had an issue................ YET

This is another of the issues I guess. I've installed so many HIT's I don't even check them for wobble anymore until I screw my broadheads on them to hunt. Even then, I'd guess maybe 1 in 50 isn't true. The only time I take an arrow in and spin it anymore is if I keep getting a flier. When that is the case 99% of the time it is because the FP is bent. Swap out the tip and good to go again. Arrows never gut hung up in the target and I don't worry about checking them.

 

[Brendan]

Here's the thing - let's not even focus on the downsides. What's the up side? What's the pressing reason to use them? What is the practical difference in a hunting situation between a 4mm arrow, and a 5mm arrow, where they differ by less than .04" in outer diameter?

My thoughts are similar to above - wind drift is the only potential benefit, not penetration. And, if it's windy enough or long enough range to matter between those two arrows, I think that it's probably not a shot you should be taking at an animal with a broadhead on the front to catch even more wind...

Target arrows, long range field, windy conditions 3D - have at it, but you can get rid of the outsert and run a target point.

 

[mfllood3800]

I have tried a few different systems, VAP penetrator generation I and II, No limits Archery,( I think), Firenock outserts, and the Gold Tip system with the outsert/collar. I used them all with the 4mm FMJ's, except the GT which I had on the Kinetic Kaos arrow. None of them worked for me.

All my builds were the same. I cut my own shafts and then squared all of them on a G5 squaring device. I used Bohning Cool Melt to put the inserts in place. I was actually impressed with this stuff after I started using it. I never pulled or lost a single outsert while using it. Was also nice in that I could rotate outserts, which was a lot, with a cup of hot water. I would then spin them with both FP's and BH's. In all the systems I didn't have many that would spin true without twisting the outsert. I could get most of them to spin with time.

VPA's: these bent often. You simply can't keep them straight. Of the systems I used they were the easiest to pull out of bag targets. The type of target they are used in makes a difference. When shooting into a Morrel outdoor range bag I would bend a few every day. At one point I sent 26 of them back to VPA and said they may want to check their components because they weren't durable. They sent me 3 dozen new ones back that I still have in a drawer. If you miss the target, don't even bother checking them, just throw them away and put in a new one. Every animal I shot with them the outsert was bent afterwards. Most of them I put through critters and basically all that missed a target didn't just bend the outsert but broke the end of the shaft as well. Ruining both the arrow and the outsert.

No Limit Archery: I don't believe they make theirs anymore and they aren't even worth discussing. They won't spin true and they bent worse than the VPA's. Good concept, horrible real world results.

Firenock: These were tough to get to spin true contrary to what they say. Every one of these had to be turned multiple times to spin correctly. These are also hard to install with cool melt. Tedious and messy. They are also light so needed extra weight to be added with them. Best I could come up with was gluing set screws in behind them. This was a real pain and not worth the effort. I also had durability issues with these, they bend and break as well. Like the VPA's, when they bent badly or broke they broke out the end of the shaft ruining both the outsert and the arrow.

GT system: Bought 6 of the Kinetic Kaos arrows with their outsert and collar. I thought these would be a good deal and like the concept. Once again it took a lot of tinkering to get them to spin correctly. I did not glue my collars on the arrow, you don't need to. The BH or field point will hold them in place. These do not pull well from bag targets. They hang up every time and take a hard jerk to pop them out. After about a week of shooting them the collars were all broken/chipped at the tops and starting to peel down. I was going to replace the collars but could not get any of them off, including using a bench vice and vice grips. I cut one of them off with a side cutter and there was target material packed in down in between the shaft and the outsert. Basically locking them in place. These also bent just shooting them into targets. Not only were the outserts junk these are very fragile arrows, they break easily.

I messed with the skinny shafts for about a year and a half. None of the systems I used worked at all. I never used a SS outsert and those may be better. In that year and a half I didn't really see any benefits of the skinnier arrow. The whole penetration argument doesn't apply in a game animal. They will out penetrate a larger diameter shaft in a foam molded target that is stopping the arrows primarily by friction. Following a 1 inch diameter cut though a game animal I don't see how there is a benefit.

I didn't see any appreciable difference in my group sizes shooting them in the wind. In SD I get to shoot in the wind a lot. What I have found in the wind is that if it is so windy that my arrows are drifting off target it is too windy to hold the bow still for an accurate shot. I think that holding a bow still during stiff winds has far more effect on accuracy than the diameter of an arrow.

Like Brendan, I think it is a good concept with poor execution. When you have a long component that has a significant change in diameter at it's fixed point they are designed to bend. SS is likely much better than aluminum but I found no benefit in the entire system to try and find out. I think the skinny shafts are a solution searching for a problem.

Good info - thank you.
I believe the skinnies do help in wind, but as stated if it's too windy to steady the bow, its too windy to shoot, ethically.

 

[mfllood3800]

This is another of the issues I guess. I've installed so many HIT's I don't even check them for wobble anymore until I screw my broadheads on them to hunt. Even then, I'd guess maybe 1 in 50 isn't true. The only time I take an arrow in and spin it anymore is if I keep getting a flier. When that is the case 99% of the time it is because the FP is bent. Swap out the tip and good to go again. Arrows never gut hung up in the target and I don't worry about checking them.

I check mine because of all the complaints on them losing their straightness. Its like I am waiting for this to manifest, which it hasn't yet, at least for me and my set up. Again I am only referring to BEA. I haven't even tried any other companies.
Thx

 

[mfllood3800]

From my experience........they extend beyond the arrow shaft, that's what's wrong with them.

For more elaboration.......because they extend beyond the arrow shaft, they bend.......even stainless steel ones. It may not be a visible bend (much like FMJ arrows), but it does cause the arrow to wobble.

Also because they extend beyond the arrow shaft, they can put undo stress on the end of the arrow shafts on glancing hits and such, which can break or split the shafts.

I won't use them anymore because I haven't found one that actually works long term.

These do stick out past it, about 1/2" or so.
I spin them to verify the bending, and haven't seen it yet.
Did you use the BEA system with SS outsert or other one?

 

[5MilesBack]

Did you use the BEA system with SS outsert or other one?

I've tried the BEA outserts as well as many of the other companies. The Firenocks were supposed to be the best, but even they bend.

 

[PathFinder]

What about the 5mm components is better? The only in/outsert I've found to do be any good in the 5mms is the Grizzly Stik one (they fit any .204 shaft, their 400 outserts fit the OD on most .204 shafts pretty well). They foot the inside and outside of the arrow well and always survive the first hard impact (but not the second). None of them combine internal and external footing for hard impacts on bone but the GS one. Or do they just tend to spin better and most guys don't worry about being able to break bones?

 

[Brendan]

What about the 5mm components is better?

Granted my experience isn't extensive, but I haven't broken or bent a brass HIT yet (You can get 20,50,75 grain HIT inserts in the .204 ID arrows that take standard broadheads as opposed to D6)

I had one I used with the Easton broadhead adapter rings that do slightly foot the end of the shaft that I mounted a small game tip to. I spent all season hammering that thing into dirt, trees, logs, rocks to the point where I broke the head, but no issues with the arrow or the insert. That's out of a bow generating ~85lb of KE. I can guarantee the gold tip insert / outsert system would not have held up like that.

Also, haven't used these, but footers for 5mm arrows are available here.

Rayzor-VPA Custom Shop CTR-Punch Footers-204

 

[PathFinder]

What do you use as an adhesive for the HITs? I watched my buddy break 4 Axis in one night when the front of the arrow would mushroom after hitting dirt beneath 3d targets. That really turned me off of the HIT system. I'm thinking super glue would be a bad deal for the HITs, but 24 hr epoxy might be better. That may have been the problem.
I've seen those VPA footers but they reminded me too much of the Gold Tip collars. Maybe they're thicker/better, but after seeing the Valkyrie system I decided to give it a run first. I think the brass HIT and a VPA footer will be my next experiment if I can't find a shaft to hold up to impacts with the Valkyrie component system.