Kimber Montana vs. Tikka T3x Superlite vs. Savage 16 LWH (308)

[luke moffat]

I very much agree with this. Since 2009. my 84m has had a VX2 3-9x UL on it, with the standard reticle. The power ring was pretty tight, so I sent it in this summer. They repaired it at no charge, and I also had them install a LR Duplex reticle for fifty bucks or so. I don't really want (or need) to shoot much beyond 400 with this rig, but I like it because it is simple and foolproof. And light!

Really the only complaint I have with these scopes is that the eye relief is not very good.

Yeah that's why my 84m wears a 6x36 with LRD in it. Plenty of magnification for as far as I shoot (450 yards and closer) and actually lighter than my 3-9x33 with cds (a CDS that I have never used to kill an animal). So going with a reticle and set it and forget it. May be swapping my wife over to the same setup. 9.5 oz and only like $279 with the LRD reticle.

He eye relief and eye box of the 6x36 smokes the ultralight 3-9 even if the ultralight is at 3x. Likely going to be selling the 3-9 UL soon. Never had a problem with it. Just don't need turrets for what I do.

 

[duchntr]

In regards to optics Ive been using a luepy fixed 6 for quite a few years and I really dig the simplicity and the the lack of weight. A fixed power scope my seem lame when comparing it to some of the scopes on the market today but give it a go you might be surprised.

 

[GKPrice]

In regards to optics Ive been using a luepy fixed 6 for quite a few years and I really dig the simplicity and the the lack of weight. A fixed power scope my seem lame when comparing it to some of the scopes on the market today but give it a go you might be surprised.

what duchntr says it so very true ^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Yellowknife]

For whatever it's worth, I was looking as scopes the other day and saw both the 6x36 and the 6x42 listed as "discontinued, limited stock" Dunno if they are being replaced or are just gone... but that's what I saw.

 

[GKPrice]

For whatever it's worth, I was looking as scopes the other day and saw both the 6x36 and the 6x42 listed as "discontinued, limited stock" Dunno if they are being replaced or are just gone... but that's what I saw.

On Leupold's website ?

 

[Yellowknife]

On Leupold's website ?

Had to go look, but it was SWFA that I saw that.

Buy Leupold 6x42 FX-3 Riflescopes at SWFA.com

 

[thinhorn_AK]

I'm not sure why you quoted my post, I already baught my montana so must have been a mistake.

Interestingly though, I got mine from the place you mentioned, I've actually bought several guns from them and I've never had an issue. They are good to go.

 

[GKPrice]

Had to go look, but it was SWFA that I saw that.

Buy Leupold 6x42 FX-3 Riflescopes at SWFA.com

That's high - ebay is a lot less

 

[Rorschach]

Thanks for the replies, guys. Haven't been able to keep up as quickly for the past 24hrs or so...work, family, etc.

Luke - I did say <400yds, but it's one of those things where, if there was enough accuracy to go for it at 500yds, I'd not shy away from it, if the accuracy was there. I'd rather have the scope not be gating item on how far I could responsibly shoot; would rather that my skill were the gating item than any piece of hardware, if possible for the money I'm putting into this.

Those VX-6's look good, as do a couple different VX-3i's and VX-2's I was finding around various big box retailers. Since it's what I'm most familiar with, some sort of graduated reticle would be greatly preferred to plain duplex or any other kind of setup - what y'all are saying about less fancy glass but with a better reticle makes total 100% sense, and is the direction I'd prefer to go, as long as I could still vary the magnification (for closer shots, so I'm not sitting on 6x with a deer 30' away...it's happened before).

It sounds like y'all are saying I could purchase an optic, send it to Leupold's shop, and have them install whatever reticle I want (or they recommend), correct? Pretty neat, had no idea that kind of service existed. In that case, I'd have no issue foregoing exposed turrets. Honestly, the BDC type reticles, I can't stand them. The concept of being calibrated for a particular load, barrel length, environmental conditions, etc...not my cup of tea (but, I'm open to being called ignorant on this). Would much rather have a christmas tree, or a setup with regularly graduated stadia along the vertical axis of the reticle (milling type reticle).

**Edit: I'm looking on their custom shop website. Wow - this is incredible. Looks like I can just order the scope with exactly what I want on it directly from them. Any known downsides to this??

 

[Rorschach]

What do y'all think about this: Customize the Leupold | VX-2 3-9x40mm

Summary: Leupold VX-2 3-9x40 with normal capped turrets but with a TMOA reticle. Comes out to ~$410.

It appears to be a milling reticle, but graduated in MOAs rather than mils.

 

[GKPrice]

Thanks for the replies, guys. Haven't been able to keep up as quickly for the past 24hrs or so...work, family, etc.

Luke - I did say <400yds, but it's one of those things where, if there was enough accuracy to go for it at 500yds, I'd not shy away from it, if the accuracy was there. I'd rather have the scope not be gating item on how far I could responsibly shoot; would rather that my skill were the gating item than any piece of hardware, if possible for the money I'm putting into this.

Those VX-6's look good, as do a couple different VX-3i's and VX-2's I was finding around various big box retailers. Since it's what I'm most familiar with, some sort of graduated reticle would be greatly preferred to plain duplex or any other kind of setup - what y'all are saying about less fancy glass but with a better reticle makes total 100% sense, and is the direction I'd prefer to go, as long as I could still vary the magnification (for closer shots, so I'm not sitting on 6x with a deer 30' away...it's happened before).

It sounds like y'all are saying I could purchase an optic, send it to Leupold's shop, and have them install whatever reticle I want (or they recommend), correct? Pretty neat, had no idea that kind of service existed. In that case, I'd have no issue foregoing exposed turrets. Honestly, the BDC type reticles, I can't stand them. The concept of being calibrated for a particular load, barrel length, environmental conditions, etc...not my cup of tea (but, I'm open to being called ignorant on this). Would much rather have a christmas tree, or a setup with regularly graduated stadia along the vertical axis of the reticle (milling type reticle).

Good morning - IF you are gonna stick with .308 I'd say 500 yards is a good max. range to at least speak to (you'll hear guys say a 308 will kill way beyond that and I won't argue the point, I've killed squirrels at close to 300 yds with a .22 too but it wasn't exactly "efficient") IF you are talking elk or large deer you can get by with a maximum point blank range and pretty handily kill out to 500 yds but you'll need a good rest and a rifle that you're confident with, I do that on occasion with my '06's launching 180's with one shot efficiency and 0 mishaps to date, but to call it a "chip shot" is not honest IMO - The custom shop for Leupold scopes is for Leupold scopes ONLY (to clarify) - the holdover dots work well and stay put - my buddy who shoots the 300 Jarrett has a 4.5 x 14 with a dot reticle that Premier did around '92 and it's still intact and working fine but he has not changed his load, that's a key element - A lot of folks like the "Christmas Tree" reticle or they wouldn't be selling but I personally hate 'em and I've tried them quite a bit - Call me "old fashioned" but I just can't get my head wrapped around this long range "hunting" thing, packing a heavy rifle with a muzzle brake and a scope that could just as well have "Hubbel" stamped on it, I just prefer to hunt the way it was "meant" to be done and that's how I've taught my kids and am teaching my grandkids - Life on our planet is changing and with it social trends too I guess but babies are still made the "old fashioned" way and so is my venison - I've used 6x fixed scopes for a large portion of my life, tried bunches of the "latest and greatest" and now I'm gravitating back to 6x's again, not exclusively but sort of - I've shot VERY close up elk and deer (and one bear) with a "fixed 6", had no trouble because it never occurred to me that I should have a problem with it, a good quality 6x is as versatile as you want it to be - Simple, efficient and deadly is how I consider any good 30.06 with a 6x - Long time back I used mil-dot and learned to use it for determining ranges as well as understanding it for holdovers, I was arguably a better shooter then too ..... Leupold gets a fair amount of "hate mail" because the internals don't work well for "dialing" I guess, there are models that we don't get to see much (or at all) I'm told by acquaintances but although the technology is cool it's not, IMO, really necessary to enjoy a hunt ,doesn't mean I can't appreciate it - Anyway, Leupold will catch up, I'm certain of this, and given that Leupold brought the "lightweight" into hunting optics, I'd bet when they do get it right their stuff won't balance like a brick atop a relatively light rifle either - As with my rambling, you've received answers and suggestions all over the map but we're not trying to hijack your thread, it's just complicated, more so these days than it used to be - Like "hunting" these days, there's a lot to choose from and think about with equipment ..... "the simpler the better" for me - You will figure out what's best for YOU, the important thing is to enjoy all of it !

 

[Rorschach]

GK, no worries on the thread drift; I hijacked my own thread by turning the discussion to optics. Probably a bad idea for posterity being able to easily know thread contents based on thread titles.

The Leupold custom shop thing seems like it might be a decent way to go. They run a pretty good backlog, if their self-reported wait times are correct (5wks as of today, it says).

Per some of the earlier suggestions in the thread on optics, I may end up going the route of that custom shop VX-2 that I referenced in my last post. Anyone have experience with the TMOA reticle? It was empty in the very center (where the vertical and horizontal cross each other), which bothered me a little, as far as a precise aiming point go, but I've never used one, so I don't know how much of an issue in the field (or at the range) this really is when it comes to precision.

 

[GKPrice]

GK, no worries on the thread drift; I hijacked my own thread by turning the discussion to optics. Probably a bad idea for posterity being able to easily know thread contents based on thread titles.

The Leupold custom shop thing seems like it might be a decent way to go. They run a pretty good backlog, if their self-reported wait times are correct (5wks as of today, it says).

Per some of the earlier suggestions in the thread on optics, I may end up going the route of that custom shop VX-2 that I referenced in my last post. Anyone have experience with the TMOA reticle? It was empty in the very center (where the vertical and horizontal cross each other), which bothered me a little, as far as a precise aiming point go, but I've never used one, so I don't know how much of an issue in the field (or at the range) this really is when it comes to precision.

"

I have always tried to send stuff in for custom work in the off season so time does not mean as much as I know they've gotten busier nowadays

there are so darn many reticles available now I don't know which I'd choose the TMOA looks interesting though but I'm more inclined to stay on the simple tract

 

[Rorschach]

All,

Just an update: I just hit 'submit' on an order on a Kimber Montana in 308 from EuroOptic.

Fingers crossed.

Thank you all for the assistance and discussion as I've thought through this topic and attempted to benefit from your collective knowledge.

 

[elkguide]

Congratulations. Keep us in the loop and let us know when the fun begins.

 

[Rorschach]

Will do.

elkguide - I'd have liked to have followed your advice on handing the candidate rifles, but I couldn't get ahold of anyone at Cabela's for several days' worth of calling customer service at the 'local' store, and I'm not driving 40min to try and handle a rifle that they may or may not have in stock. So, I'm going-it "blind", due to y'all's good reports of the Montana's accuracy, along with it's lightweight compared with the Tikka.

We'll see how it doooooo.

 

[AK Troutbum]

You won't be sorry.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[GKPrice]

IMO you made a great choice - keep us posted

 

[Formidilosus]

Rorschach,

After a couple dozen of each the short version is this-

Kimber= Slightly lighter weight, best stock on a factory gun, good action, good trigger, average to slightly below average barrels, relatively poor QC. You stand a very good chance of having to do work to correct things that they absolutely should have not left the factory with- only 2 out of the last dozen or so Montanas/AD/etc I've used were correct straight out of the box. Check the mag box, relieve mag box, shorten front base screw, bed the lug, and 30-40% need a full bed job. A 280AI had a chamber cut so bad there was no choice but to rebarrel.

With all all of that done you are realistically looking at a 5.5lb 1.5-2MOA gun. Yes, some or even most will shoot random 3 shot "groups" under a MOA, but they won't do it on demand. I.e.- place a 1 inch dot at 100 yards and they will not hit it consistently.





Tikka T3/T3x SL= Slightly heavier, one of the best "plastic" stocks on a factory gun, great action, great trigger, great barrels, excellent QC. You stand a very good chance of getting a rifle that will shoot 10 (ten) round groups of right at 1 MOA. There will be no work that needs done, just load and shoot. They will absolutely smash a 1 inch dot at 100 yards on demand.


With the Tikka you are realistically looking at a 6lb true 1MOA gun.






Now one might infer from the above that I don't like Kimbers.... Not true. I just do not delusion myself with what they are. If ultimate lightweight rifle is wanted and 2moa will accomplish what you want and you don't mind having to tinker, than the Kimber will work great. And truthfully a true 2moa gun is perfectly adequate to kill well past 400 yards and you might get fortunate and get one that does better. As well if
you like the package that the Kimbers offer you could rebarrel and have a very good shooting rifle.

On the other hand the T3's offer a no drama affair. Put bullets in them and go. Replace the stick with a lighter one and you get down to nearly the same weight as the Kimbers with none of the drama.



I have both, I use both, I like both, but I recognize what they both do.








As for scopes and distance.... Here we go again.


Scopes serve one purpose. One. That is to steer bullets to point of aim (POA). They are not observation devices. In that they must hold zero through abuse and accidents, stay zeroed no matter what and no matter the round count, and if using to adjust for distance they must track correctly every single time, they must return to zero without fail, they should have a means to adjust for wind in the reticle and the reticle increments should match the turret increments.
Dialing for range and holding in the reticle for wind is the fastest most consistent way to get a hit on single relatively small target under field conditions from awkward positions with varying wind.

Leupold does not make a single scope that meets all of those requirement that is suitable for a regular hunting rifle... no matter what you pay. And yet no one wishes they did more than me.

SWFA makes two scopes that meets all of those requirements. One is less than $300 and one is less than $600.








The right scope with the right rifle with rifle with the right bullet makes what is your "450 yard" shot for you right now, a 600+ yard shot later.....




As as far as which clambering they are all more alike than they are different in regards to potential terminal ballistics. Where they differ is in easily obtainable precision, especially with factory ammo, recoil, trajectory and wind drift. Given your rates requirements... yes the 6.5 Creedmoor is easily the top choice and by a long shot. After that the 308 takes it due to factory ammo options which most all others lack.

I own a savage and used it once. Like others have said, the action of the bolt just isn't as smooth. I would rather suffer carrying a heavy barrel rem 700 sps 308 I built instead of the weight savings I had with the savage. One more thing to consider with the accuracy portion is that most new rifles will shoot great. You'll just need to find the right ammo. Even factory. Especially with the variety you can get with a 308, you can find a factory round that'll shoot great. Some guys are stubborn and won't stop shooting a certain round and would rather blame the rifle instead of the poor matching of ammo. Case in point: when finding a round for my newest 308, I tried 9 different brands, weights, velocities until I found one that shot the best. Turns out, it was one of the cheaper rounds. Lots to do with bullet weight, velocity, and barrel twist rate. You can read more on that with other threads. Just my 2 cents.

A correctly put together rifle with a good barrel will shoot most ammo well. If I had to go through 9 different ammo combos to get one that shot to standard I would've.... well I wouldn't have. I would have rebarreled after the second one. Picky guns suck.

 

[Davesphizikal]

A correctly put together rifle with a good barrel will shoot most ammo well. If I had to go through 9 different ammo combos to get one that shot to standard I would've.... well I wouldn't have. I would have rebarreled after the second one. Picky guns suck.[/QUOTE]


OP, don't listen to that because it's factually untrue. Barrel twist, bullet weight, and velocity will determine how well a round performs through a certain rifle, if the rifle is without fault. There's no such thing as a picky rifle, just an uninformed shooter. Don't listen to us though, just give it some review online and come to the conclusion yourself.