Eld-x bullets... not impressed

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Ft-lbs energy is not a wounding mechanism and will tell you nothing about what a bullet will do in tissue. There is no bullet that needs "1,800 ft-lbs energy to open", but every bullet has a minimum impact velocity for reliable upset.

Velocity of mass IS energy. It's called kinetic energy. 1/2mv^2 if I recall correctly. We are talking about the same thing by different names.


A 180gr 30cal solid at 3,000fps and a 180gr 30cal frangible at 3,000fps have exactly the same "energy". So how does knowing the energy help you in any way to understand what either bullet will do in an animal?

The have the same energy. No question about that. But that energy is used in different ways. With the expanding bullet is it used to "upset" the projectile and cause tearing and rending of tissue. With the solid it would used for straight line penetration. Obviously and clearly the bullet type matters more than almost anything other than placement. But for any given specific bullet type, energy matters also. There is no question that for any given bullet and muzzle velocity you will get more potential wounding damage at 100 yds than you would at 600. And that is directly due to the reduction in velocity, which again IS kinetic energy.

Again... not saying that the .257 and a 45.70 loaded to the same energy level will act the same on game. Nor have I ever put any stock in "minimum energy level" for a particular animal. But to say minimum velocity matters but energy doesn't is kind of arguing against yourself.
 
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Scratching my head here but, isn't velocity dependent upon energy? Whether it is potential/stored energy or kinetic.
 
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Basically, what I mean is velocity cannot exist without energy. So ya, I belive energy matters. Because it dictates velocities which in turn dictates "bullet performance" of whatever you might be flinging down range.
 

Formidilosus

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So it's clear, I'm not trying to argue, nor am I trying to say that one needs to be a wound ballistics expert to kill deer. I am saying point blank that the field of terminal ballistics, and more specifically Small arms projectile Wound Ballistics, does not use kinetic energy as any metric for tissue destruction.. "Ft-lbs energy" is not a wounding mechanism, tells absolutely nothing about what a bullet will do at any range. It does not tell you what the Max Penetration depth will be, the Neck Lemgth, the size of the permanent crush cavity, width of max Temporary Stretch Cavity, or the depth to max TC.




Penetration= total distance penetrated
Neck Length= Depth at which upset/expansion occurs
Permanent Crush Cavity= The permanent wound channel of torn and damaged tissue that is directly effected from the bullets passage
Max Temporary Stretch Cavity= max width of the temporary stretch wound radiating outward as the bullet passes
Depth to Max TC= the penetration depth to the max temporary stretch cavity


Combine all all of those and you get a 3D image of what the wound channel looks like.



Energy numbers do not tell you "how deep and how wide" a wound will be at a given impact velocity. As hunters and shooters figuring out what projectile to use, ft-lbs energy is a useless metric in that it does not tell you a thing that matters.

Knowing that a 180gr 30cal Nosler Accubond at 3,000fps impact velocity will penetrate an average of 20-24 inches of calibrated Ballistic gel, feature a neck length of about .5 inches, have a max TC of around 7in, and that the depth to max TC occurs at between 4-6in of penetration, does tell you something. Compared to a 180gr 30cal Berger VLD at 3,000fps impact velocity with 16-18 inches of penetration, a neck length between 3 and 4 inches, a max TC of nearly 11 inches, and the depth to max TC will of around 10 inches.
 
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Energy numbers do not tell you "how deep and how wide" a wound will be at a given impact velocity. As hunters and shooters figuring out what projectile to use, ft-lbs energy is a useless metric in that it does not tell you a thing that matters.

And then....

.....Knowing that a 180gr 30cal Nosler Accubond at 3,000fps impact velocity.....

You say it's useless, and then start your point by stating mass and velocity. Mass and Velocity IS energy. You could have said "A 180 gr 30 cal Nosler accubond with 3600 ft-lb of energy" and that quite literally means it was going 3000 ft/sec. Same-Same. All those other parameters are just the measurements of type of "work" accomplished by that energy and the specific bullet type. But just like changing the bullet (physical construction) changes the measurements if the wound channel, so would they also change if you keep the bullet the same style and varied either the mass or velocity... and that is because each those directly effects the energy, which effects the work that can be accomplished. You know that, which is the reason you say "at a given velocity".

Where ft-lb measurements cause problems is when people think that 3600 ft-lb from one bullet is as good as 3600 ft-lb from another. THIS we agree with. You can get the same ft-lb number with a fat-slow bullet, or a fast-light bullet, but they won't act the same on impact. So... yes, in that way it's useless, or at least commonly mis-used. And as you point out, you can also have two bullet types impacting with the same mass and velocity (same energy) that act very different due to construction. I think that's what you are getting at, so I'm not arguing with you there at all.

From a physics perspective, FOR A SPECIFIC BULLET, then the size/length of the wound channel is directly related to the energy available to do the work of creating it. And since mass is a constant for a bullet, then the energy is directly related to the velocity at impact (minus anything that exits). Basically I'm saying that for a given bullet type, energy is EXACTLY what tells you how deep/wide it will be. Velocity is a easier thing to think about, but consider this: any given bullet will have FAR less than half of the wound cavity volume if it impacts at half the speed (say 1500 vs 3000 ft/sec). That is the because kinetic energy used to upset the bullet, fragment that bullet, and displace the tissue to create that wound is calculated based on velocity SQUARED. So the damage that can potentially be done isn't linear with velocity at all, but instead drops off much quicker.

I know you shoot way more than me Form, but you have some misunderstanding about what exactly energy is. It's not an end all measurement of anything.... but you are still very much using it. You just don't realize it.

And to summarize what is likely the longest post I have ever written on the internet...

Energy as a way to compare the lethal effect of different calibers? = NO
Energy as a way to measure potential damage that can be caused by a specific projectile? = YES
 
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A 180gr 30cal solid at 3,000fps and a 180gr 30cal frangible at 3,000fps have exactly the same "energy". So how does knowing the energy help you in any way to understand what either bullet will do in an animal?

You said "energy" doesn't matter, you changed the only variable in that equation that doesn't affect the energy given.

A 180 grain 30 cal solid going 5fps and a 180 grain 30 cal solid going 3,000fps. I may not be able to tell you exactly what the second one will do but I'm pretty sure on the first one.




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And then....



You say it's useless, and then start your point by stating mass and velocity. Mass and Velocity IS energy. You could have said "A 180 gr 30 cal Nosler accubond with 3600 ft-lb of energy" and that quite literally means it was going 3000 ft/sec. Same-Same. All those other parameters are just the measurements of type of "work" accomplished by that energy and the specific bullet type. But just like changing the bullet (physical construction) changes the measurements if the wound channel, so would they also change if you keep the bullet the same style and varied either the mass or velocity... and that is because each those directly effects the energy, which effects the work that can be accomplished. You know that, which is the reason you say "at a given velocity".

Where ft-lb measurements cause problems is when people think that 3600 ft-lb from one bullet is as good as 3600 ft-lb from another. THIS we agree with. You can get the same ft-lb number with a fat-slow bullet, or a fast-light bullet, but they won't act the same on impact. So... yes, in that way it's useless, or at least commonly mis-used. And as you point out, you can also have two bullet types impacting with the same mass and velocity (same energy) that act very different due to construction. I think that's what you are getting at, so I'm not arguing with you there at all.

From a physics perspective, FOR A SPECIFIC BULLET, then the size/length of the wound channel is directly related to the energy available to do the work of creating it. And since mass is a constant for a bullet, then the energy is directly related to the velocity at impact (minus anything that exits). Basically I'm saying that for a given bullet type, energy is EXACTLY what tells you how deep/wide it will be. Velocity is a easier thing to think about, but consider this: any given bullet will have FAR less than half of the wound cavity volume if it impacts at half the speed (say 1500 vs 3000 ft/sec). That is the because kinetic energy used to upset the bullet, fragment that bullet, and displace the tissue to create that wound is calculated based on velocity SQUARED. So the damage that can potentially be done isn't linear with velocity at all, but instead drops off much quicker.

I know you shoot way more than me Form, but you have some misunderstanding about what exactly energy is. It's not an end all measurement of anything.... but you are still very much using it. You just don't realize it.

And to summarize what is likely the longest post I have ever written on the internet...

Energy as a way to compare the lethal effect of different calibers? = NO
Energy as a way to measure potential damage that can be caused by a specific projectile? = YES

Good post


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ELD-X's are an A-MAX with an Interlock ring. They do not grenade as much as a Berger. They do not hold together like a Barnes.

There's nothing that about the results that you got that is surprising.

Look I'm not trying to be a dick or argumentative here but, when you said this the other day it didn't set right right with me because this is not true in my experience with the .284 162gr hornadys. I didn't want to post this until I could get to my reloading room and take some pics. I've shot and reloaded the A-MAX, ELD-X and ELD-M. Your statement is true with the ELD-M, not so with the ELD-X. Unfortunately I don't have anymore A-MAX's to show but here is the difference between the ELD-X and the ELD-M. The measurement at the ogive is quite different which creates more, or less bearing surface on the bullet. There is other slight differences but this is the most. I had slight differences in POI between the two because of this (which is how i figured this out). It's not just an Interlock ring that sets them apart. Like I said I'm not trying to hammer you (although you probably feel that way) I'm just giving my findings, given my experience with them.

The ELD-X is on the left and the ELD-M is on the right.







 

Formidilosus

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Look I'm not trying to be a dick or argumentative here but, when you said this the other day it didn't set right right with me because this is not true in my experience with the .284 162gr hornadys. I didn't want to post this until I could get to my reloading room and take some pics. I've shot and reloaded the A-MAX, ELD-X and ELD-M. Your statement is true with the ELD-M, not so with the ELD-X. Unfortunately I don't have anymore A-MAX's to show but here is the difference between the ELD-X and the ELD-M. The measurement at the ogive is quite different which creates more, or less bearing surface on the bullet. There is other slight differences but this is the most. I had slight differences in POI between the two because of this (which is how i figured this out). It's not just an Interlock ring that sets them apart. Like I said I'm not trying to hammer you (although you probably feel that way) I'm just giving my findings, given my experience with them.

The ELD-X is on the left and the ELD-M is on the right.



I'm not talking about their shape. I'm talking about their behavior in tissue.
 
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Easy to predict what a bullet will do when shot into a wad of wet newspaper. Little more difficult when it's a living creature with the will to live. Point being that if you had shot 40 animals in the same spot at the same distance, you'd likely still have 40 different results. "You" not being you,but anything for that matter.

DRT and bang-flop is pretty much a load of shit. Why guys jizz their pants over it is beyond me. My guess is that it's the only way some can tell if they "hit" something.

Anyway, if someone told me I could have a ticket to NZ but only shoot Corloks, I'd still be packing my bags.

The Remington Core-Lokt bullet has dropped a shitload of game in the last 75 years. My father in law has been hunting with that ammo and a sporterized 1903A3 since he was a teenager. At the age of 62, he hits a pie plate at 400 yards and has dropped over a hundred elk, deer, bear, pig, moose and who knows what else. The guy's shop looks like a taxidermist's. He swears by that bullet and it looks like he has reason to. I use it in my .270 for hogs because it cloverleafs at 100yds out of that gun and it has never once failed me. I'm with you, accuracy is final and I'd gladly hunt New Zealand with Core-Lokt all day.
 

Gr8bawana

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The Remington Core-Lokt bullet has dropped a shitload of game in the last 75 years. My father in law has been hunting with that ammo and a sporterized 1903A3 since he was a teenager. At the age of 62, he hits a pie plate at 400 yards and has dropped over a hundred elk, deer, bear, pig, moose and who knows what else. The guy's shop looks like a taxidermist's. He swears by that bullet and it looks like he has reason to. I use it in my .270 for hogs because it cloverleafs at 100yds out of that gun and it has never once failed me. I'm with you, accuracy is final and I'd gladly hunt New Zealand with Core-Lokt all day.

I can testify that Core-Lokts just plain work. I've been shooting them from my 7RM since 1980 and have never had a failure or lost an animal. I can also hit a gallon milk jug out to 400 yards all day long. Am I hitting dead center of the jug or the edge, doesn't matter. What will those bullets do at 700-800 yards? I don't know and I don't care.
 
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excaliber

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It sounds like you took some bad angle shots that should have been passed while waiting for a better angle. 8 yards in the face? what did you expect the bullet to do. It's not a solid copper bullet.

It seems to me the bullets did exactly what they were supposed to do.
 

JP100

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I have been using the 200gn ELD X in a .300 wsm this year as my client rifle. No complaints
from 50-350 yards, everything that was hit properly died properly.
A good allrounder from my view.
No bullet will do everything and att velocities its just not possible.
 
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ELD-X's are an A-MAX with an Interlock ring. They do not grenade as much as a Berger. They do not hold together like a Barnes.

There's nothing that about the results that you got that is surprising.

Penciling at 140 and 330yards is nt surprising? Or grenading at 2850fps isn't surprising??

I never followed this up.. ended up piling 2 more chamois and a big body stag. 12 yard chamois front on, low chest, ruined backstraps and loins.. Bullet absolutely grenaded.. it was a mess. Crazy thing is the animal still backed up and did a death march 30 yards or so.

550 yards chamois. Perfect lung shot right behind the foreleg broadside. Watched hit.. animal did the whole what just happened dance. Walked out of sight.. caliber entrance, 1" exit. Nothing spectacular inside. No major destruction of lungs.

Stag was 330 yards. First shot was downhill on a facing away animal. found out bullet penciled through the left lung. Found animal 10 minutes later at a more level position. 275 yards shot went through leg, good expansion through lungs, animal Was still kicking a good while later so I shot it through the scapula and into lungs.. weak wound channel again.


Moffat corroborates that the eld-x minimum expansion is probably 1800fps.. I think if memory serves
The 860 was at or near 1800fps but all other kills were between 2850 and 2100fps on impact.


The eld-x from my experience didn't live up to the hype as a one and done bullet.
 

hooker

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Sounds like your not manly enough to shoot a .300... :) Less is more. :) Honestly though the grenades stuff sucks.. Penciled through? Dead? Interior damage? Did it Expand, mash the hell outta crap and then pencil out? thanks for the post

Not a fan of ballistic tips. Gernadeville
 

luke moffat

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Penciling at 140 and 330yards is nt surprising? Or grenading at 2850fps isn't surprising??

I never followed this up.. ended up piling 2 more chamois and a big body stag. 12 yard chamois front on, low chest, ruined backstraps and loins.. Bullet absolutely grenaded.. it was a mess. Crazy thing is the animal still backed up and did a death march 30 yards or so.

550 yards chamois. Perfect lung shot right behind the foreleg broadside. Watched hit.. animal did the whole what just happened dance. Walked out of sight.. caliber entrance, 1" exit. Nothing spectacular inside. No major destruction of lungs.

Stag was 330 yards. First shot was downhill on a facing away animal. found out bullet penciled through the left lung. Found animal 10 minutes later at a more level position. 275 yards shot went through leg, good expansion through lungs, animal Was still kicking a good while later so I shot it through the scapula and into lungs.. weak wound channel again.


Moffat corroborates that the eld-x minimum expansion is probably 1800fps.. I think if memory serves
The 860 was at or near 1800fps but all other kills were between 2850 and 2100fps on impact.


The eld-x from my experience didn't live up to the hype as a one and done bullet.

I based that minimum expansion on a sample of one recovered bullet that impacted at an estimated 1650 fps. I don’t claim to say that’s a hard and fast rule but I will certainly try to ensure my impacts are higher than the suggested 1600 fps hornady claims. Again one recovered bullet is certainly not enough IMO for others to base their opinions on it just cause some dork (myself) recovered a bullet that impacted just above the minimum suggest impact velocity.

That said the animals I have seen shot with eldx, believe just above 20 in 2017, all died quickly and I was impressed with the weight rententiom on the bullets we did recover. But if I had the experiences you did I would look elsewhere for a bullet for your uses, luckily here are a lot to choose from. For me I see no reason to switch.
 

JP100

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ELD X very impressed!

I still struggle to actually believe the OP, sorry mate but are you sure you using the ELD X??

We picked up a .300 wsm last year and run the 200 grain ELD X all season on Chamois,Tahr and Stag, with a few odd random thrown in. pushing around 2700fps muzzle velocity, so not super fast.

Closest shot was 30 yards(Tahr) and longest 350(Tahr and Stag).

All these animals were one shot kills(apart from one wounded Tahr, no fault of the bullet), most died on the spot.

Penetration was very GOOD, frontal Tahr at 30 yards I dug the bullet out from back straps as a perfect mushroom.
I have found around 6-7 projectiles all look the same with perfect mushroom, some the lead core is about to fall out of them. The un recovered projectiles were full pass throughs.

I have been very impressed with the ELD X, and have changed my other calibers over to it this season because I like it so much. As a 'long range' bullet I think its miles ahead of something like the berger as its far more useful over a wider range of velocities.


20170719_144521.jpg
here is a ELD X from a frontal shot at 30 yards, so around 2700 fps impact velocity and a perfect mushroom and actually very little meat damage given the shot, the back strap is more or less fine. A tahr is not the biggest critter out there for sure, but very heavily muscled and take lead better than most critters.


Just because an animal dies does not mean the bullet worked well, and just because the bullet worked well does not mean the animal dies.
IMG_1365.jpg
This Seirra Match King killed a stag with one shot, but I would not call it 'good' performance, nor recommend them as a hunting bullet.

Tahr at 220 Yards with 200gn ELD X.jpg
here is another Tahr taken with the ELD X at around 220 yards, frontal quartering shot, bullet was under the skin in a nice mushroom. What more can you ask for? Thats ALOT of penetration and bullet held together and the ol Tahr did not move, he was bedded and as we say 'woke up dead' haha
 
OP
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Yup 200gr eld-x

Mate the Cham was kinda funny. For the first 5 minutes we laughed that the 300 win mag is so powerful the animal just falls over and dies at the sound.
 
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