Leupold LR duplex vs. CDS

[GKPrice]

Yeah, I should take my fanboy hat off even though only half of my scopes are Leupold. No need to turn this into a flame thread.

no need - the "smart" hunters don't dial for game anyways ..... Leupold has slipped while in the "race" but they'll come out alright I suspect - Incidentally, I'll take lightweight over dials anyday in a HUNTING scope

 

[GKPrice]

I very much like Leupold and that was all I used for 20 years. But over the last two years I've seen way too many of their variable scopes fail, and the vast majority have been scopes using the CDS dial.

"Your comment might as well say Leupold scopes aren't made to adjust for elevation repeatedly and fail if you do it a lot. " Couldn't have said it better myself

That being said, I still like, actually love, their fixed 6 power scopes - both the 6x36 and 6x42. They have been great for me, fairly bombproof and reliable. IMO for 90% of the hunters out there a fixed 6 Leupold with either the standard duplex or LR duplex will be all the scope they ever need. There are some very successful hunters who has shot HUNDREDS of head of big game and did it all with a fixed 6 power scope.

Very well said .......

 

[16Bore]

I've been trying to see if there's a MOA scaled reticle offered from Leupold, rather than any dial of sorts. So far, the TMOA can't be done. Waiting to hear another response from them though and will pass it along. I thought about LRD, but don't particularly care for the random dots.

I've got 3 M8 6x42's and they are just hard for me to pass on. The M8/M1 combo has been a peach.

 

[Formidilosus]

The old M8's tended to be quite reliable.

 

[mtmuley]

I'm just gonna quietly continue to use my MOA CDS dials. mtmuley

 

[CLICKBANGBANG]

I've got one CDS scope on a Win M70 in 7mm RM. It's fine for the money. I wouldn't buy anything below a VX-3 (personal preference). On a hunting rifle, these work pretty good. I've had a few dials made and they all tracked minuet of Gatorade bottle out past my comfortable shooting distances when hunting. If you are really going to use a CDS load specific dial in the field, test the heck out of it and practice. Just like anything you take with you hunting. I keep the cap with MOA marks on the scope, and run the Shooter app. But the custom turents are fun to play with.

My unofficial self funded internet studdy failure rate on the CDS is acceptable per capita. When you sell as many scopes as Leupolds has, a few are probably going to come back.

 

[16Bore]

If Leupold could put a MOA reticle in my fixed 6 I'd be happier than schit.

 

[GKPrice]

If Leupold could put a MOA reticle in my fixed 6 I'd be happier than schit.

have you looked through their website in the custom shop page ? they have all sorts of reticles they can do but not "all" reticles in "all" scopes - they recently told me that they'd work on any of their scopes made post 1989 roughly - I've used Mil-Dot rets a lot and once you get your head around the increment values they work really well

 

[16Bore]

Been emailing back and forth. The T MOA would have been nice. No go. Then I asked if there was any MOA reticle and he said no.

Last idea was to see if they'd turn a windplex sideways. Haven't asked yet though.

Mils would work, just have to rewire my noggin....

 

[luke moffat]

If Leupold could put a MOA reticle in my fixed 6 I'd be happier than schit.

Why they don't offer a TMOA or TMIL as an option for every scope is beyond me....I would send my VX-6 in to get it installed if they would.

 

[16Bore]

Makes too much sense. 10 MOA would take most rifles with just a 100 yard zero to 500 easy. 200 even better.

 

[GKPrice]

Been emailing back and forth. The T MOA would have been nice. No go. Then I asked if there was any MOA reticle and he said no.

Last idea was to see if they'd turn a windplex sideways. Haven't asked yet though.

Mils would work, just have to rewire my noggin....

roger that, I "had" it figured out long ago but I'd still have to but would need to totally re-learn it again

Over the years I've been into Leupold and talked with various techs and such - maybe not always but sometimes I've found that if you call and ask for a TECHNICIAN specifically they used to get one for you and maybe, just maybe you'd get a more customer friendly answer, not certain but I've had quite a few mil-dot reticles that Leupold did for me - Premier did it better but they took care of that too ....

 

[16Bore]

The door is wide open for Vortex to make a line of fixed power lightweight scopes with the right reticle.

It'll probably stay open too.

 

[hooker]

So I did a searched and found a few occasions people advised would-be-buyers to purchase a Leupold VX-1 2-7x33 scope instead of the VX-2 ultra light since they are almost the same weight.

Now I began looking and sure enough they are both about 9oz. The main difference I can find (besides price) is that you can purchase a VX-2 with the CDS turret, and only get the VX-1 with the LR Duplex (bdc type reticle). I am interested in getting feedback from people that have experience with one, or both of these systems.

This will be going on a 6.5 Grendel bolt gun. Due to ballistics I will not be taking shots further than 4-500yds (not considered long range by some, but considered a heck of a long distance to me).

Will I gain anything with the CDS (I've heard vague complaint claims concerning the CDS dials, i'd like to hear more about those)? Or would I be better off with the LR duplex (how do you like the reticle, did the bdc points correlate to useable holdovers)?

That's a lot of questions I know.

Never had a single problem using the CDS or M1 dial or the LR dots. I buy used VX 1's send them to Leupold with load info for either a CDS dial or a M1 dial. They track a hell of alot better than I can shoot. I believe it was a fixed 6x36 Leupold with the LR retical on a .270 win and it was absolutely money. Yes Leupold will install a custom CDS or M1 Dial for the VX 1. I like the zero stop on a hunting rifle. I shoot a lil. But not alot.

 

[BrushyHillGuide]

So I did a searched and found a few occasions people advised would-be-buyers to purchase a Leupold VX-1 2-7x33 scope instead of the VX-2 ultra light since they are almost the same weight.

Now I began looking and sure enough they are both about 9oz. The main difference I can find (besides price) is that you can purchase a VX-2 with the CDS turret, and only get the VX-1 with the LR Duplex (bdc type reticle). I am interested in getting feedback from people that have experience with one, or both of these systems.

This will be going on a 6.5 Grendel bolt gun. Due to ballistics I will not be taking shots further than 4-500yds (not considered long range by some, but considered a heck of a long distance to me).

Will I gain anything with the CDS (I've heard vague complaint claims concerning the CDS dials, i'd like to hear more about those)? Or would I be better off with the LR duplex (how do you like the reticle, did the bdc points correlate to useable holdovers)?

That's a lot of questions I know.

Neither one (LR reticle or CDS) are really good options; particularly in a budget scope like a VX1. If you want to do any precision shooting out to the range you're talking about, get a VX2 with the Wind Plex reticle and then get a MOA turret for (at least) your elevation: New Screw-On Knurled Dials for Leupold Scope Turrets << Daily Bulletin This will allow you to "dial" for your elevation and 'hold" for your wind. If you have both turrets replaced you can dial for wind; but at the distances you're talking about, holding for your wind correction is faster and easier, imo. The VX2 and even the VX3 internals were not really designed for accurate and repeatable dialing of the turrets. It's not until you get into the VX6 and the tactical line that the scopes were designed for dialing. If all you can afford is the VX2, just make sure you run a "box test" on the turrets to see that they move like they're supposed to AND return to zero after dialing each corner of the box. Long Range Shooting "Box Test" - YouTube

Here are the reasons against the 2 options you asked about:

Leupold LR reticle: this reticle, like ALL 'BDC' reticles, are basically a hoax perpetrated on the uninformed consumer to make them think they can shoot further than they should. A little thinking about it and you'll realize this system is HORRIBLE....these 'bullet drop compensators' are designed by the scope manufacturer around 1 rifle of a certain caliber shooting a specific bullet of a specific weight at a specific velocity at a specific altitude, etc. For THAT setup (which they rarely describe), the reticle is probably pretty good. But if you change even one of those variables, the reticle loses some of its accuracy. So, if that's the case, IMAGINE what happens when you're shooting a different caliber with a different bullet in different conditions! Those hash marks, dots, circles or whatever the scope has on it will only correspond with random distances on your setup. There ARE some apps like StrelokPro that will help you work around these reticles but that's just one more step you have to take and they're by no means a GOOD work-around. SA whole article could be written on this but hopefully you're getting the idea.

How do I know? I ended up buying a couple VX6 scopes for the incredible glass, thinking I could use them for my LR shooting. It was a weight saving move after shooting Nightforce scopes for long range; and last year Leupold didn't offer a standard MOA subtended (hashmarked) scope with a illuminated reticle. After 1 year I am now having to replace 2 $2,500+ scopes! Leupold finally woke up to the LR game and started offering serious long range reticles in their premium hunting scopes....along with REAL turrets for dialing!

CDS dials: The problem with these are the same as the BDC reticles; only not quite as bad. So, these dials are designed around a specific load for your rifle that you provide. The problem is, velocity will change (even in the most precise handloads) in different temperatures and especially different altitudes. So, imagine how factory ammo changes. Unless you only hunt in one specific area (i.e. don't plan on going on a dream hunt to a different environment) using only ONE ammo. Not one weight of bullet...I'm saying one bullet from one ammo manufacturer in ONE specific product line. What happens if they drop that line or you find out there's an ammo that shoots better in your rifle? What if you win a hunt of a lifetime to the mountains of Kajikistan? Having a dial that ties you down is silly. If you're going to 'dial,' why not dial in MOA (essentially inches) or Milrad (essentially centimeters) that can be utilized no matter what ammo you're shooting or what environmental conditions you're shooting in?

Sorry for the long post but hopefully it'll give you some food for thought.

One last thing. Cutting weight is great but it's not everything. I don't know what kind of hunting you're doing but I'll tote a heavier scoped rifle that's durable and dependable EVERY day over a 'lighter' package. At the end of the day, how good a shot you make is more important than how tired your shoulder is. I've been guiding hunters for more than 30 years all over the west. I would worry about anyone I was guiding that was toting around a rifle with a 9oz scope and trying to shoot 400 yards. I would highly recommend getting a VX2 OR BETTER for any mountain rifle. Just assuming you're mountain hunting if you're keyed in on an "Ultralight" scope.

JMO. Hope it's helpful.


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[hunting1]

I have had a Mk4 puke and a VXIII, but still have and use Leupolds. I do not understand why they do not update some of their offerings?

I like the B&C reticle for ease and wind holds. I just bought a discontinued VX6 with B&C CDS and it is a great scope. I have it on a 300WM so we will see how it holds up. So far it does what it is told, but size, clarity, and weight it is a great scope. My other hunting rifles all have 3.5-10 B&C reticles and I just verify the drops 300, 400, 450, and 500 and adjust accordingly.

 

[BrushyHillGuide]

Why they don't offer a TMOA or TMIL as an option for every scope is beyond me....I would send my VX-6 in to get it installed if they would.

No doubt! I'm in the same boat. Couldn't agree with you more! Look at the new (link below) offerings - they're now offering exactly what we've all wanted (at least in the VX6 line) BUT.......and here's the rub.....they won't "custom shop" them into your existing VX6- "they're only compatible with the new VX6 models!" I'm SO sick of the "Leupold Custom Shop's" refusal to do ANYTHING custom and Leupold's foot dragging on reticles and turrets for precision shooting that I'm considering a new optics sponsor.

I will be swapping my current VX6s for the new versions because they finally seemed to have listened to the shooting community; but I'm also going to be testing some other scopes (albeit heavier ones) from other manufacturers.

VX-6HD Riflescopes Archives - Leupold Optics | Leupold Optics


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[luke moffat]

Yeah screw that!! Those VX-6HD are just about NF ATACTR money and actually well within NXS money and they come with everything I would want for that money.

 

[907to406]

I'll bite, I have a Lupy CDS VX3 4.5-14 on my 270wsm which is used for my light weight do all hunting rifle. I didn't want a custom cut turret since I shoot different loads at different elevations and temps. So I called up luepold (2 years after I was running the scope without a zero stop) and they sent me a turret with a zero stop free of charge. Big ups to luepold for that. I have nightforces and vortexs on other long range guns but this rifle was for 100-700 yards backcountry hunting. I've never had an issue with my luepold holding zero or tracking improperly, however I only shoot the gun 20-30 times per year. Would I go shoot a long range competition with this scope where I'm constantly dialing up and down? Probably not but for a lightweight hunting rig it works great.

 

[Gatorgrizz27]

Here are the reasons against the 2 options you asked about:

Leupold LR reticle: this reticle, like ALL 'BDC' reticles, are basically a hoax perpetrated on the uninformed consumer to make them think they can shoot further than they should. A little thinking about it and you'll realize this system is HORRIBLE....these 'bullet drop compensators' are designed by the scope manufacturer around 1 rifle of a certain caliber shooting a specific bullet of a specific weight at a specific velocity at a specific altitude, etc. For THAT setup (which they rarely describe), the reticle is probably pretty good. But if you change even one of those variables, the reticle loses some of its accuracy. So, if that's the case, IMAGINE what happens when you're shooting a different caliber with a different bullet in different conditions! Those hash marks, dots, circles or whatever the scope has on it will only correspond with random distances on your setup. There ARE some apps like StrelokPro that will help you work around these reticles but that's just one more step you have to take and they're by no means a GOOD work-around. SA whole article could be written on this but hopefully you're getting the idea.

CDS dials: The problem with these are the same as the BDC reticles; only not quite as bad. So, these dials are designed around a specific load for your rifle that you provide. The problem is, velocity will change (even in the most precise handloads) in different temperatures and especially different altitudes. So, imagine how factory ammo changes. Unless you only hunt in one specific area (i.e. don't plan on going on a dream hunt to a different environment) using only ONE ammo. Not one weight of bullet...I'm saying one bullet from one ammo manufacturer in ONE specific product line. What happens if they drop that line or you find out there's an ammo that shoots better in your rifle? What if you win a hunt of a lifetime to the mountains of Kajikistan? Having a dial that ties you down is silly. If you're going to 'dial,' why not dial in MOA (essentially inches) or Milrad (essentially centimeters) that can be utilized no matter what ammo you're shooting or what environmental conditions you're shooting in?


JMO. Hope it's helpful.


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Good info, I agree with a lot of it. A couple things to think about with the BDC reticles and CDS setups:

You are correct that the 300/400/500 BDC may not match your load properly, but it may hit at 320/450/570 if you're shooting high BC bullets. It can make it a little more confusing to manage, but deer don't stand at fixed ranges, and shooting a deer at 320 with a dot zeroed at 300 isn't much different than shooting a deer at 300 with a dot zeroed at 320. Needing to be on max power is an issue, but if you zoom in when taking a longer shot it will work. Most of these BDC reticles don't seem geared towards guys using rangefinders, they are more of an "estimate" which I'm not a big fan of.

While the CDS scopes are created for one load/elevation range/environmental condtion, they are also marked MOA or MILS underneath the custom yardage data. This means for your day to day hunting you can use the CDS as intended, but you can easily print up a drop chart and use the MOA/MILS marks for a destination hunt.

Leupold has also come out with some interesting new scope/reticle/turret setups on their site within the last week. Stuff like a VX-6 HD 2-12 with locking turrets and an Illuminated TMOA reticle, right at a pound.