Bear Pistol Self Defense

[Formidilosus]

That also includes being able to get the 1st round on target from the holster in a second or less. For everyone that is carrying for defensive purposes should go to the range and test not only the shot split times, but also the 1st shot split time.

Absolutely, and I was meaning from the holster as well.

 

[Brendan]

If you'd rather keep your G21, install a heavier recoil spring & grab a box of Underwood 200gn .45 Super

It takes it to 10mm power levels (slightly over actually, depending on ammo choices) at minimal cost.

I wouldn't recommend shooting hundreds of them, but a box to get used to it + a loaded mag won't harm it in the least.

Actually - it can go well over 10mm power levels, but you need to run a compensator and have to know your shit for working up a handload. Have to really want to do it though. S&W 329PD or G20 + bear spray is pretty easy though...

 

[Superkodiak38]

I am planning on carrying my 9mm when I go to Colorado, and agree that training is something most people lack. Now that I am retired from law enforcement range time is more difficult to come by ! I agree that being able to put MULTIPLE rounds on target in short order is key, don't stop shooting until the threat is eliminated. I have seen people shoot and peek and shoot and peek, keep engaged and dump rounds until you run out or get run over or elimate the threat. You would think that goes without saying but believe me it doesn't. I have been hosed down with OC spray and gotten it through being downwind enough times that I don't care to incapacitate myself with that crap and dont intend to fill my strong hand with it.

 

[wildcat33]

Very interesting thoughts on the penetration of hard cast +p 9mm. Will have to see if I can find any research on this. I always carried a 40s&w with 180gr buffalo bore in lower 48 simply because I'd rather have more rounds, knowing damn well if I ever had to use it it would be hard to get rnds in target under stress.

 

[wildcat33]

Also, I'm going to have revisit the whole hard cast out of a glock barrel thing.

 

[hflier]

I agree, I had a .44, but the time between rounds was not going to work for, me so I sold it. As far as the hardcast through a Glock I would say they would only go down the pipe in a crisis and I would think that would be fine. Honestly the only way I would feel ok in Grizzly country is a with a high power or my slug gun. Handgun is just a Hail Mary.


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[TheJuice]

Alright, I'm sure what follows is going to get people who haven't done much shooting and killing with handguns all riled up...


You have to hit vitals first, and by vitals I mean CNS. Being extremely generous- maybe an 8in target. And they only reason I say that is because it's been my general experience that when things get shot in the face multiple times they tend to leave you alone, even if not hit in the CNS.

Then the bullet has to penetrate deep enough to reach those vitals. There is no magic with pistol bullets. People shoot bears with 375's and 458's and they run off, attack the hunters, etc. There isn't a revolver or pistol that can be carried made that will touch a rifle cartridge for damage in tissue. The people that on one hand say if they had to stop a charging bear want a 375 or 458 and on the other hand think a 44mag or 454 Casull are "POWERFUL" are out of their minds.

As to wound size- if you shot an animal with a 44mag with hardcast bullet, a 45 auto with hardcast, and a 9mm with hardcast bullet, you'd be hard pressed to point out which was which. Wound channel width will be nearly the same between them. So the question is can a 9mm/40/45 with hardcast penetrate deep enough? Yes, and from alll angles. The Buffalo Bore hardcast +P 9mm rounds are ridiculous diggers and they can be CONTROLLED.

That brings us to actually hitting with a handgun during what for most will be an extremely stressful moment, probably by surprise and at a rapidly moving target. I've seen quite a few people that claim to be able to rock and roll with the big bore revolvers.... None of them could shoot fast enough and accurate enough to be using them for defense in my opinion. That includes some from Gunsight that teach big bore courses. Even reletivly trained shooters are looking at 2-3 rounds in 3 seconds on a 8in target at 7 yards with the big bores. With the same level of trainingi and practice a person can double or triple that with a regular service pistol.

If I absolutely knew that I was going to be attacked by a bear tomorrow and the only thing I could have is a pistol, I'll take a compensated, dot sighted 9mm with BB Hardcast +P's.

I'd like to read more about this. Do you have a link to penetration tests done with these rounds?
I carry a 2.5" 44mag now, but it is hard to be fast and accurate, even in practice scenarios. Much harder, I'm sure, under a stressful encounter.

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[luke moffat]

Having been in on 25-30 grizzly kills now I can say they aren't entirely hard to kill if hunting them. Have yet to have to shoot one in self defense though and have only been bluff charged once by a sow with yearling cubs on a sheep hunt. Often I go summer backpacking with my 329PD which I am decent with at slo mo aiming speed but doubt I could get more than one decent shot off (if that) at a bouncing bear head at full charge.

Even more often I carry a rifle even backpack hunts as I am more accurate with it but even slower with quick follow ups. Heck there are times every year I go backpacking without any bear protection at all. More or less any firearm you have with you is to give you the warm fuzzies when out and about than to actually have to use the firearm in defense of a warm fuzzy

Use what you have and are comfortable with and enjoy being outside rather than concerned about a bear behind every tree.

This year I likely will be packing a rifle again for bear protection/bear hunting on our summer backpack trips as it's tough for me to beat the accuracy I get with a rifle with a reflex red dot on it compared to any pistol. That and 225 grainers at 2400 fps ought to penetrate some atleast when I am purposely chasing a bear to put holes in it.

 

[Mister Shush]

I'm a law enforcement firearms instructor and over the last 23 years I have participated in ammunition evaluations for my former agency of 4,000 officers, the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center and a combined municipal, state and FBI evaluation of pistol and rifle ammunition performance through light, intermediate and heavy barriers. Anyone interested in the mechanics of handgun wounding needs to start with this publication from the FBI:

fbi handgun wounding factors and effectiveness : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

and here:

http://www.dlgunsmithing.com/uploads/4/5/8/2/45825609/wound_ballistics_2013_gary_roberts.pdf

and here for rifles:

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008/Intl/Roberts.pdf

The next place to visit is this forum post by Commander Gary Roberts, USN (ret). Roberts is a trauma surgeon specializing in ballistic wounding and surgery of the head, neck and maxiliofacia. I have worked with Roberts and believe me when I tell you that he knows more about ballistic wounding than anyone in North America.

Self Defense and Duty Loads...ballistics info by DocGKR

Handguns, in short, offer poor incapacitation potential and are not optimal in most scenarios involving threats two-legged or four. However, since we cannot pack rifles everywhere 24/7/365, we must squeeze every advantage out of a handgun that we can. Accuracy is key, penetration is key, expansion is a bonus and generally not as critical as the former two points. Sectional density is paramount in bullets:

Sectional density - Wikipedia

If you read these links, you'll have a basic understanding of ballistic wounding.

 

[Mister Shush]

Also, I'm going to have revisit the whole hard cast out of a glock barrel thing.

You can shoot lead all day long out of these:

KKM | Glock 19 Match 9MM

 

[Superkodiak38]

I'm a law enforcement firearms instructor and over the last 23 years I have participated in ammunition evaluations for my former agency of 4,000 officers, the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center and a combined municipal, state and FBI evaluation of pistol and rifle ammunition performance through light, intermediate and heavy barriers. Anyone interested in the mechanics of handgun wounding needs to start with this publication from the FBI:

fbi handgun wounding factors and effectiveness : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

and here:

http://www.dlgunsmithing.com/uploads/4/5/8/2/45825609/wound_ballistics_2013_gary_roberts.pdf

and here for rifles:

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008/Intl/Roberts.pdf

The next place to visit is this forum post by Commander Gary Roberts, USN (ret). Roberts is a trauma surgeon specializing in ballistic wounding and surgery of the head, neck and maxiliofacia. I have worked with Roberts and believe me when I tell you that he knows more about ballistic wounding than anyone in North America.

Self Defense and Duty Loads...ballistics info by DocGKR

Handguns, in short, offer poor incapacitation potential and are not optimal in most scenarios involving threats two-legged or four. However, since we cannot pack rifles everywhere 24/7/365, we must squeeze every advantage out of handgun that we can. Accuracy is key, penetration is key, expansion is a bonus and generally not as critical as the former two points. Sectional density is paramount in bullets:

Sectional density - Wikipedia

If you read these links, you'll have a basic understanding of ballistic wounding.

Thanks for the info, I appreciate it ! I am interested in any testing done with Polycase ARX round. A friend of mine has simular credentials to yours and he has done some testing with them and found them to be pretty devastating comparing the 80 grain Polycase against a 127 gr +p+ round both in 9mm thanks !

 

[Mister Shush]

Thanks for the info, I appreciate it ! I am interested in any testing done with Polycase ARX round. A friend of mine has simular credentials to yours and he has done some testing with them and found them to be pretty devastating comparing the 80 grain Polycase against a 127 gr +p+ round both in 9mm thanks !

I've heard of these and they are a no-go for serious use. Too light, too much yaw, poor performance against light barriers like clothing and non existent performance through intermediate and heavy barriers. Here is a statement from Dr. Roberts:

The Polycase are grooved bullets, reminiscent of the old Devel bullets, but made of a compressed copper-polymer matrix and are very lightweight. The vendor touts that the grooving causes also sorts of radial energy, temp cavity, blah blah blah.

I see non-expanding bullets that yaw. BFD. Note that when they yaw, all the fancy grooving/fluting is no longer in play, as the bullets are going base forward. Science. Physics. Fluid Dynamics. Yipee. The PolyCase bullets are so light, that they don't have enough mass to penetrate deeply, so they stay in the 12-18" range. They also tend to break apart on hard objects (note the vendor's own test through plywood) and the fact that the vendor never shows shots through laminated glass or steel.


Polycase Inceptor ARX? | Lightfighter Tactical Forum

 

[Superkodiak38]

Thanks !

 

[Thinkingman]

You want a lead hardcore bullet that penetrates not something the overly expands or fragments or you'll be eaten.

I wouldn't use what you linked. A 200gr+ hardcast even if it only travels at 800ft/s would outperform a 78gr fragmenting bullet at 1900 ft/s

Couldn't agree more.
I had Buffalo Bore Hardcast 45acp rounds in a Taurus Ti revolver.
OH MY....You knew when you touched one off.
Now it's Buffalo Bore 38spl +p in a SW 386 XL Hunter.
I also just bought the CCI shotshells with #4 shot for snakes or a sitting grouse.

 

[USPcompact]

I'm a law enforcement firearms instructor and over the last 23 years I have participated in ammunition evaluations for my former agency of 4,000 officers, the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center and a combined municipal, state and FBI evaluation of pistol and rifle ammunition performance through light, intermediate and heavy barriers. Anyone interested in the mechanics of handgun wounding needs to start with this publication from the FBI:

fbi handgun wounding factors and effectiveness : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

and here:

http://www.dlgunsmithing.com/uploads/4/5/8/2/45825609/wound_ballistics_2013_gary_roberts.pdf

and here for rifles:

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008/Intl/Roberts.pdf

The next place to visit is this forum post by Commander Gary Roberts, USN (ret). Roberts is a trauma surgeon specializing in ballistic wounding and surgery of the head, neck and maxiliofacia. I have worked with Roberts and believe me when I tell you that he knows more about ballistic wounding than anyone in North America.

Self Defense and Duty Loads...ballistics info by DocGKR

Handguns, in short, offer poor incapacitation potential and are not optimal in most scenarios involving threats two-legged or four. However, since we cannot pack rifles everywhere 24/7/365, we must squeeze every advantage out of a handgun that we can. Accuracy is key, penetration is key, expansion is a bonus and generally not as critical as the former two points. Sectional density is paramount in bullets:

Sectional density - Wikipedia

If you read these links, you'll have a basic understanding of ballistic wounding.

All good stuff. Those are the same links I send to anyone that appears to have an interest in this subject. HWF&E was what first got me interested in the mechanics of wound ballistics.

Dr. Roberts (DocGKR) is a veritable fount of knowledge on this subject, and in my opinion which means jack squat, has done more to educate those interested in this subject than any other person in at least the last 25 years. On top of that, he's well regarded in the dental field, also.

 

[wildcat33]

As to wound size- if you shot an animal with a 44mag with hardcast bullet, a 45 auto with hardcast, and a 9mm with hardcast bullet, you'd be hard pressed to point out which was which. Wound channel width will be nearly the same between them. So the question is can a 9mm/40/45 with hardcast penetrate deep enough? Yes, and from alll angles. The Buffalo Bore hardcast +P 9mm rounds are ridiculous diggers and they can be CONTROLLED.

You've sparked my interest... any data to back this up??

 

[USPcompact]

You've sparked my interest... any data to back this up??

I'm assuming you're asking about the penetration aspect, as the wound channel width issue is pretty straightforward.

Here's a video of a 100 gr 'traity (.380) +P Buffalo Bore hardcast fired into ballistic gel (no idea if it's calibrated, but good enough for these purposes): [video=youtube;O3b3ZGmZuT0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3b3ZGmZuT0[/video]

 

[wildcat33]

^yeah.
I get the whole high V high SD thing but as far as I can tell, the vast majority (all?) of the reasearch presented above deals with expanding bullets in soft media (i.e. Gelatin/humans) from a law enforcement/social work perspective. Sure the hard cast results in gelatin will be predictable but Has anyone simulated a bear-like media to see if the theoretical performance holds up? Those grizz got tough hides. I'm thinking Something along the lines of the FBI denim or car door testing.

If the argument could be made that carrying a 9mm with 15 rnds of hard cast is as much, but not more of, a Hail Mary than 6rnds of 44 mag, id consider a 9mm setup on my next Wyoming trip.

Edit: found this after posting, pretty interesting: 9MM +P OUTDOORSMAN Pistol and Handgun Bullets Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

 

[USPcompact]

^yeah.
I get the whole high V high SD thing but as far as I can tell, the vast majority (all?) of the reasearch presented above deals with expanding bullets in soft media (i.e. Gelatin/humans) from a law enforcement/social work perspective. Sure the hard cast results in gelatin will be predictable but Has anyone simulated a bear-like media to see if the theoretical performance holds up? Those grizz got tough hides. I'm thinking Something along the lines of the FBI denim or car door testing.

If the argument could be made that carrying a 9mm with 15 rnds of hard cast is as much, but more of, a Hail Mary than 6rnds of 44 mag I go buy that kkm barrel straight away.

I was hoping to find exactly that, but in the limited time I spent looking that's the closest thing I came up with.

Ballistic gel is meant to be a rough analogue of tissue and bone. A piece of carpet over 3 or 4 layers of denim wouldn't be a bad simulation of a tough animal hide, but I'm not sure it would make that much difference in performance.

There are barrier tests out there that show what a hollow point does after passing through a barrier (auto glass, sheetmetal, and denim are the typical mediums, though I do recall seeing a test done with a down jacket and Carhartt hoody) and then failing to expand in gel, and the penetration is typically impressive. A hardcast lead bullet with a higher sectional density would penetrate even further.

 

[Mister Shush]

^yeah.
I get the whole high V high SD thing but as far as I can tell, the vast majority (all?) of the reasearch presented above deals with expanding bullets in soft media (i.e. Gelatin/humans) from a law enforcement/social work perspective. Sure the hard cast results in gelatin will be predictable but Has anyone simulated a bear-like media to see if the theoretical performance holds up? Those grizz got tough hides. I'm thinking Something along the lines of the FBI denim or car door testing.

If the argument could be made that carrying a 9mm with 15 rnds of hard cast is as much, but not more of, a Hail Mary than 6rnds of 44 mag, id consider a 9mm setup on my next Wyoming trip.

Edit: found this after posting, pretty interesting: 9MM +P OUTDOORSMAN Pistol and Handgun Bullets Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

Sectional density is the answer to your question. Let's set a level playing field between the 9mm 147 grain hardcast that you posted, .44 magnum 340 grain +P+ hardcast and the .45 Colt 325 grain +P hardcast. We're firing the at the same bear, same day, same conditions etc. It's Groundhog Day from hell. We're firing 4.7 to 5 inch barreled pistols and the normal muzzle velocity for each is 1450 to 1500 feet per second according to the load data.

The 9mm 147gr. has a sectional density of 0.167
The .45 Colt 325gr. has a sectional density of 0.227
The .44 Magnum 340gr. has a sectional density of 0.263

Which of these is going to penetrate deeper when striking the same bear at the same spot under the same conditions? They're all moving at about the same speed at 10 yards and they're cast from the same lead ingot, but the .44 Mag bullet has the greatest sectional density and it will penetrate deeper with all things being equal. It has about a 37% greater sectional density than the 9mm bullet does and that is a significant difference in wounding potential, as wound ballistics experts would put it.

Now, the real question is whether you've cultivated a mindset to perform somewhat decently in the face of a grizzly bear coming at you from 10 yards and have you invested in quality training and regular practice? In all likelihood, you're going to be lucky to see your front sight half of the time you're pulling the trigger. More ammo isn't going to help if it's not reaching the things that need to be hit and the 9mm has significantly less wounding potential than the other choices. Could you get lucky? Sure. I prefer science because science is correct whether I agree with it or not and I'd prefer to train to hit what I need to hit with the right tool than train to do the same with the less effective one. There is no doubt in my mind that the round I'm using will penetrate adequately. You need to decide what's best for you. I carry the .45 Colt .325gr. For me, it's controllable and offers outstanding penetration potential. While there are no grizzly bear gelatin tests, penetration and accuracy are always the primary factors in bullet performance and the edge always goes to the bullet with more sectional density when all factors are equal or close to.

edit: auto-correct, syntax