Leupold CDS Thoughts?

[NDGuy]

Haven't seen a thread lately concerning the CDS.

I have an 8 year old VX3 3.5-10x40 on my Tikka 30-06. I was debating on getting a new scope but think I am going to hold off for awhile because I am just doing ND deer rifle this year. I got a hold of Leupold and mine is older so they have to retrofit CDS on it. It would be $230 for retrofitting and making a CDS for my load, which is nearly half of what my scope was sold for retail.(I got it for like $250 when I worked at Gander Mtn)

I've read so much mixed thoughts on Leupold in general lately especially anything to do with tracking or returning to zero. This is 100% a hunting rifle and being a 30-06 I likely won't be shooting past 500 yards with it ever. Is the CDS a decent upgrade to my current scope? Or am I better off just using the scope until I decide to upgrade with more reliable tracking.

I am slightly attached to it because this was my first setup and this was one of the last variations they made that came stock in the silver color. The silver color looks phenomenal on my Tikka T3.

 

[go4thegusto]

I have a couple of CDS and like them very much. The caveat to that is mine are 1 inch tube and it bottoms out at 350 yards with the minimal adjustment of the 1 inch tube. I had to go to 20MOA base to correct. This was a 223 application.
30mm CDS would allow more adjustment but 20MOA base works also.

 

[danmayland]

I’ve owned numerous Leupold scopes. Many with the CDS and many without. The CDS system is a great introduction to dialing turrets for yardage corrections. I’ve never owned a Leupold that had any tracking problems. They all performed very well. That being said I now prefer a normal MOA/MIL style dial up turrets. You can get the CDS turrets in standard MOA/MIL if you request it vs the laser engraved yardage turret. I prefer the MOA/MIL system because it’s inherently more accurate. There are just to many changing variables that manipulate point of impact to rely on the laser engraved yardage turrets.

My suggestion would be to save your money for one of the new Leupold LRP models that already come with the MOA/MIL turrets and reticles. They are pretty reasonably priced and will offer a much better option in the long run. Consider going with a ffp - first focal plan scope with the TMR reticle. It’s a great scope. Another solid option is the new Nikon Black fx-1000. Athlon also offers some great scopes in the same price ranges. The Ares BTR, Midas are solid scopes. The Vortex Viper PST Gen II is another outstanding option for a little more coin!
Hope this helped!! Good luck!!

Dan


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[NDGuy]

Thanks for the replies. I’m disappointed Leupold doesn’t have some sort of trade in program. $230 seems like a lot to just get the setup. I can put that towards a SWFA like you were suggesting. Any other input?


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[danmayland]

Thanks for the replies. I’m disappointed Leupold doesn’t have some sort of trade in program. $230 seems like a lot to just get the setup. I can put that towards a SWFA like you were suggesting. Any other input?


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Yea that’s too much in my my opinion. I had them upgrade my las VX-6 to the CDS target turrets and it was like $120-$140 I think. The SWFA are good scopes as well!!

Are you a Facebook user? There is a great page called rifle scope trader where you can score some pretty good deals on guys looking to trade or upgrade their scopes and/or offload them at a pretty good discount. I also have a MeWe site where people sell an exchange long range hunting equipment. There are a few scopes for sale on there right now.

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[catorres1]

We have a VX3i and a vx6. Both had been used to dial for shots out to 1200 yards and back and forth, no problems with RTZ. That said, for 275 bucks, I think I might save up for something new. One particular thing I like about the vx5 and 6 series of scopes is that you can get two turn locking turrets with a zero stop. That is really nice to ensure you don't get 'lost' in your turns, or turrets don't get accidentally moved when hunting. Have had that happen on the 3i before (both things), really like locks on a hunting gun's turrets.

Its a bunch more money, but if you sell your scope, and add in the 275 you were going to spend on the CDS turrets...you'll be a good way there for a vx5.

One other thing, on the 'distance' vs MOA turret, definitely MOA in my opinion. I started out with the custom turret route. Ended up with a useless turret. Bullets, powders, conditions, needs...they all change and your custom turret becomes obsolete pretty fast.

 

[Cahunter805]

Call Leupold and ask them for a S1 dial. I think they are around $50 and are very easy to install and use.
View attachment 70703

 

[R H Clark]

Leupolds just aren't built to be heavy duty dialing scopes. They may very well work for a bit but I wouldn't trust one long term like I would a scope designed to dial like the Nightforce or SWFS SS.

 

[NDGuy]

Leupolds just aren't built to be heavy duty dialing scopes. They may very well work for a bit but I wouldn't trust one long term like I would a scope designed to dial like the Nightforce or SWFS SS.

I am debating on passing on the CDS and just selling my scope privately and putting towards a SWFA SS 3-9X42.

I called Leupold and they don't have a trade in program, won't upgrade any other components to make the $230 easier to stomach. Disappointed but it's understandable, just wish they would help me out a bit more.

 

[30338]

I think the SWFA sale they just had with the 6x Mil/Mil on sale for around $270 gives a guy a heckuva chance to use one to see if you like it. I've used them successfully for a few years now and have several friends and family who have them. It is solid scope as are the 3-9 and 10x SWFA scopes. It is nice to dial 4 or 5 mil and have the scope actually move 4 or 5 mil.

 

[R H Clark]

I am debating on passing on the CDS and just selling my scope privately and putting towards a SWFA SS 3-9X42.

I called Leupold and they don't have a trade in program, won't upgrade any other components to make the $230 easier to stomach. Disappointed but it's understandable, just wish they would help me out a bit more.

That 3-9 HS SS SWFA is a good hunting scope if you don't mind the tall turrets. I think glass is about VX3 level. There is tunneling at 3X but it is gone at 4-9X. They just had a sale,may still be on, and they will have another on Black Friday. last years BF sale price was $450 for that 3-9. Personally I think it is their best hunting scope, at least for what I do.

Another option though between 4-6 ounces heavier is a Bushnell LRHS. I prefer it over the 3-9 SWFA even though it is about 4 ounces heavier in the 3-12 model. I just picked up a used 3-12 for $800. GA Precision is about to have the last of the 4.5-18 illuminated Bushnell LRHS scopes for $750. I think they will take a deposit now.

 

[backcountry_hunter]

To echo what RH Clark said, I was in the market for a turret scope not all that long ago. I had shot fixed crosshairs for decades and was buying into the adjustability at different ranges. As a long time leupold user I immediately began looking at vx3's with CDS. The more I dug, mostly on dedicated shooting websites/forums the more I found out that leupold vx series, although make great scopes just aren't the best value if you're going to be doing any dialing. The other one that really surprised me was swaro scopes didn't receive all that high of praise for dialing.... I didn't spend alot of time researching, after I found a few different options I stopped looking at traditional hunting brands.

For comparable costs the SWFA SS is a pretty impressive piece of glass. If you have the funds nightforce are a force to be reckoned with (pun intended).

 

[duckhunter175]

I had a very positive experience with Leupold retro-fitting a scope for me.

I have a VX3 8.5-25 that had the tall TGT turrets-- they aren't really ideal for dialing in the field. I had them install the TMOA reticle and an M1 dial on the elevation turret.

The M1 dial is a simple 1/4 MOA turn and count dial but it will be cheaper than the CDS system and more versatile than getting a load specific turret. I would email and ask on the cost for an M1 and check the TMOA reticle out as well.

Best of luck!

 

[Lockster]

Call Leupold and ask them for a S1 dial. I think they are around $50 and are very easy to install and use.
View attachment 70703

Thanks for this info, I recently purchased a VXR scope and was planning to get a set of the CDS caps but hadn’t been able to work out which load to run with yet, this turret is potentially a much better option for me. Cheers.

 

[N2TRKYS]

I wish the SWFA scopes weren't so heavy and hideous looking.

 

[R H Clark]

I wish the SWFA scopes weren't so heavy and hideous looking.

X2
But they grow on you. One thing to check is to make sure your rifle doesn't have a high ejection. I had a Forbes that wouldn't eject past the SWFA turret so I had to go with a Swaro Z5. I have no illusions the Z5 will dial as reliably for as long as the SWFA would have. It can't being made from much lighter less robust internals,but hopefully it will do OK for the limited dialing I will do in the field.

 

[ramont]

CDS caps are an expensive marketing gimmick, they are only accurate for the exact cartridge used under the exact environmental conditions with exactly the same shooting position as you set them up for; if anything changes then the CDS caps will not be accurate. The better solution is to learn how to properly range your target and adjust the scope.

If you want a shortcut to field marksmanship then you'd be better off buying a scope with bullet drop compensation (BDC) from a manufacturer that provides software that calculates the drops of the reticle marks. With the software, a BDC scope will never be out of sync with changes in cartridges or environmental conditions (as long as the shooter recalculates the BDC drops whenever his equipment or shooting conditions change).

You can accomplish the same results as a BDC scope by simply buying a good scope with a graduated reticle. MOA is easier to work with mathematically and the adjustments are quicker but Mil is more precise and produces more accuracy at long range. BDC marks are simply reference marks on the reticle, a graduated reticle can serve the same function simply by identifying the retcle marks that represent fixed ranges.

 

[barrister]

I'm posting the thoughts below in order to learn more. I have shot guns all my life, but I don't have extensive rifle hunting experience and no "long" range shooting experience. I'm from Ohio, so shooting out to 400 yards is a long way for me.

I see criticisms of the cartridge specific dial adjustments and they confuse me. It seems to me that some of the criticisms aren't warranted. For example, there is the "same shooting conditions" criticism. Isn't that true no matter what method you choose to adjust your "hold over"? Anytime you change the point of impact variables from your prior shooting experience (due to a change in elevation , etc.) your prior method of adjusting the aim point needs to also be adjusted (whether that aim point adjustment was dialing to a number on the dial, calculating and dialing a set number of clicks, or holding to a BDC point on the scopes reticle).

Also, I get the issue of the custom dial being specific to a certain load. However, that is a flexibility argument only. I see many experienced riflemen on this site recommending to find the load the rifle likes and stick with that. If sticking with a specific load is the objective of the rifle's owner, instant flexibility of the dial to multiple cartridges/loads isn't important, correct? And, if multiple loads are to be worked up for one gun, any holdover data can be used for a custom dial for that load also. So, this seems like just a matter of preference based on the user's intentions for that rifle, not a failing or gimmick of the system.

As for any debate about quickness in the field, my inexperience is likely clouding my judgment. It seems quicker to range a target and dial to a preset number on the dial, instead of taking that range, then mathematically computing holdover in the field, then making the necessary aim point adjustment. That has been my experience to date.

On a related note of speed and practicality in the field, that is also why I don't especially care for BDC reticles. Everytime you change magnification any holdover chart you have for reference goes out the window. You end up needing a chart for multiple magnifications. Too much to keep documented, to keep with you and to access when it's time to act. At least with the CDS system, the crosshairs are always on the point of impact at any magnification.

I come from a hunting only perspective, no competition, so I appreciate feedback from those of you who regularly shoot long ranges.

 

[tyeager2964]

This is kind of off topic but an anwser for above

Front focal plain scopes are accurate at every magnification. Second focal plain scopes subtensions are only accurate at one magnification but can be used at multiple magnification with practice.

I think the main argument against CDS being valid only at a certain elevation, load, etc is that they are only accurate at the one set of specifics. If this is a common occurrence then they work great. If you change anything then they basically become another system to learn how to adjust. Why pay for another system when you have one already there that you can learn to use.

All scopes have a basic CDS system (if they have easily adjustable turrets) either in Mils or MOA So why pay for another one just to be able to dial to 500 yards instead of 14 MOA.

This isn't to say a CDS dial is not worth the money. It is just pointing out it's limitations. Now of you scope doesn't have an adjustable turret then the CDS is a good upgrade but as someone else already mentioned getting it in MOA instead of yards will make it more useful overall

 

[catorres1]

Barrister,

Not sure where you are on the experience curve, so excuse me if what I post is obvious, or on the other hand, not clear enough.
The problem with the custom dials (I have had them) is they are set to one load, one set of conditions, and the numbers scribed on the dials represent translations of MOA or MIL drops to a particular distance. So, instead of thinking....x number of yards, y number MOA...dial to that number on the dial, it is supposed to be faster to go...x number of yards, dial to x on the dial. Basically, the manufacturers take your data and figure out how many clicks you need to hit your target at x yards, and put that number on the dial at that point. It cuts out a step (having to look at your dope) and should be faster.

Problem is in a few areas. For example, a few weeks ago, I was hunting at 0 feet above sea level and temps ranged that day from about 40 in the morning to about 80 in the afternoon. A few weeks before that, we were at 1000 feet and temps were in the teens. And a few weeks before that, we were at 11,500 feet and temps ranged from the teens on some days to near 70, but some days at 5000 feet and everything in between. All with the same gun, the same load. The problem is, that turret will only be correctly setup for one of those situations, and even then, only to moderate distances. If I dial for 700 yards at 11,500 feet and 50 degrees, and then take that 700 yard shot at 0 feet and 50 degrees, I'm going to miss my mark.

The other area, different loads, is of less concern, but still a concern. For example, I've been through various bullets for my rifles due to trying better accuracy, new bullet choices, cost, availability etc. Powders too, I just changed powder because I cannot find the previous powder I was using for an extended time, so I moved to a different choice, and my accuracy node is different with this powder...

So in those cases, a custom turret with distance scribed just does not work all that well. If you are only hunting one area ever, with one bullet...well I suppose it works fine as long as your distances are kept moderate. But if you travel, use different bullets, hunt different temp extremes and shoot past moderate ranges, not so much.

Another set of problems where the turret becomes useless is if you like to shoot really long where coriolis and aero jump become considerations. These cannot be taken into account by the turret because they are wind and shot direction dependent.

I say this having had a custom turret done many years ago, but quickly found it did not work out as planned because of how I grew to use my rifles. As I said, they probably have utility for hunters who hunt the same areas, same temps, with the same load and keep the distances moderate. And there are a lot of hunters who that describes, maybe most, I don't know. But for others, not so good.

The way I work now, I range and to a certain distance, my RF tells me how many MOA to dial based on the conditions and my trajectory. Past a certain distance, I use a Kestrel with AB for a more accurate solution. Not everyone works that way, but that's how I do it.

HTH!