Lead ammo - mild, polite rant

[Desk Jockey]

Warning - Mild rant below.

Saw this in some of the media coverage of the Zinke order signing. Among other things he is allowing use of lead ammo on federal lands, along with a bunch of other stuff that is I think is great.

Overtunring the lead ammo ban is good because I tend to think the overall concept of a lead ban creates an avenue for back door banning of recreational firearms usage. There is plenty of discussion by pro gunners about how the anti-2A crowd have tried oblique tactics like banning lead and certain chemical components of primers and powder as a way to reduce the availability and raise the cost of ammo to make shooting more expensive and therefore less popular.

Having said that, I am not a fan of eating lead. I have run into a pellet or two in waterfowl and pheasants I hunt. In the meat, never in a crop by the way.

When it comes to deer, I have been exclusively a bow hunter so I haven't had and issue. I inspect my arrows for blade breakage and cut away meat near the wound channel.

Reading some of the anti zinke coverage I saw this study:

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/campaigns/get_the_lead_out/pdfs/Cornatzer_et_al_2009.pdf

I was also intrigued by the article from the meateater team below.

A MeatEater’s Case for Getting the Lead Out – MeatEater

I guess I would want to have the option to use lead but see the value of nonlead alternatives to prevent consumption by humans in meat. As far as the 20 millions birds they claim lead exposure kills. I am not sure I am convinced. I am reminded of the story of the estimate 1.3-3.7 billion birds that US house cats eat each year. Even if you think that number is inflated - Do We Really Know That Cats Kill By The Billions? Not So Fast : 13.7: Cosmos And Culture : NPR - it still seems like it is an order of magnitude higher than the top end of the impact being ascribed to environmental lead.

 

[wildcat33]

I always thought I did a really good job of trimming my meat, until I found a large chunk of lead in one of my sausages a few months ago. I had to wonder how many little pieces got ground off from that bigger one. Never seriously considered copper until this. May look at loading up some barnes TTSX i have laying around for this season.

Edit: Meat was from my buddies cow elk shot at 20 yards with a 180gr Rem Cor-Lokt (30-06), so makes sense that there would be some pretty major fragmentation.

 

[Jason Snyder]

I stopped using lead core bullets 16 years ago. I don't have a single concern about using monolithic bullets on big game. I load them for all of my rifles and have used them on deer, elk, and antelope with great success.

I am very mixed on this subject. I think there are very definite health benefits to going lead free in all ammunition. However, I am not going to pay three bucks a pop to shoot non toxic out of my old 16 gauge. So, for upland birdsI shoot lead and we do our absolute best get all of the pellets out.

It really pisses me off when I look at all of the money the US Government has pumped into the ethanol industry in an effort to make it a viable fuel source, with no environmental benefit at all. That money could have been used to subsidize the ammo industry and/or help them develop alternative sources, and had a definitive and lasting benefit on the environment.

 

[theleo91386]

I'm pro using what you want. I have no problem with monolithic bullets in certain applications but I still don't see them as a broad spectrum better answer to some lead core bullets in the shooting I do.

 

[MattB]

My perspective is the science was there to ban lead for waterfowling due to the manner in which ducks feed making it more likely that they would ingest pellets, but that ecofreaks coopted the argument and expanded it to situations where the harms were very, very questionable.

 

[Ray]

This winter I took in a lecture at a local forum on the environment. The lecture was given by a UofAK co-op teacher from the bush. He presented in formation from published studies out of the states. Being a life long scientist and hunter a couple of the results shocked me.

Here is a link to just one study that was discussed.

A lot of control measures went into designing this study and testing the concepts. The one issue with this study for me is that they didn't sample the pigs afterward to see if they had excreted the lead or if their tissues had accumulated it. However, blood lead levels have been shown to be representative of health issues. But I still want to know where the lead went in these test pigs as their blood lead returned to pre tainted meat levels after they stopped being fed the tainted meat.

 

[530Chukar]

Pro lead here. I really with there was better technology in lead free bullets to this point. I'm still surprised to see that no one has produced an alloy to replace lead in jacketed bullets. I've bitten into a few led pellets before and steel shot once and man does the steel shot hurt more.

 

[archer wapiti]

I guess I would want to have the option to use lead but see the value of nonlead alternatives to prevent consumption by humans in meat. As far as the 20 millions birds they claim lead exposure kills. I am not sure I am convinced. I am reminded of the story of the estimate 1.3-3.7 billion birds that US house cats eat each year. Even if you think that number is inflated - Do We Really Know That Cats Kill By The Billions? Not So Fast : 13.7: Cosmos And Culture : NPR - it still seems like it is an order of magnitude higher than the top end of the impact being ascribed to environmental lead.

This isn't something I've thought about much because I don't hunt with a rifle. A post on here a couple months prompted me to do a quick web search and read a few articles on the subject. You always have to wonder about the numbers that get thrown around.

I shoot a lot of lead shot in the uplands. I can't convince myself that the bit of lead I'm spreading out there in the environment is going to be preferentially consumed by quail or other species for grit.
I think that most populations of birds that have individuals affected by lead poisoning are able to withstand the mortality rates. Bald Eagles have recovered in most of the lower 48 despite no regulation on lead bullets for instance. The obvious exception to me is California Condor, which seems doomed without intensive management. Perhaps some common loon populations in the northeastern US are declining because of ingesting lead sinkers.
On the other hand, to see an animal (I've only seen photos) that is suffering from lead poisoning is heart-wrenching and not something I would wish on our fellow creatures.

If I do take up a rifle some day, I'll probably go for non-lead hunting bullets, but spend most of my practice rounds using the most cost-effective round, which I assume would be lead.

 

[MuleyFever]

I am not really clear on what you are trying to say regarding the birds killed by cats. However, if you are trying to say that cats kill way more birds than lead so we shouldn't worry about lead that is backwards thinking. Hunters kill way more big game than all other predators. Does that mean we should just let all predator numbers go unchecked, since they are not killing even a fraction of the animals hunters are?

Humans have forever disrupted the balance of nature and I believe that it is our responsibility to do what we can to help protect wildlife diversity and populations. That includes using lead free ammo where appropriate and even pre planning construction to help prevent mass numbers of birds from flying into buildings, windmills, and such or animals from ending up on roads. It is easy to write off the many ways we kill off wildlife as not significant but as time goes on those ways and numbers will continue to grow until there are no more animals left in significant numbers.

Now I am not saying we should be able to eliminate all unnecessary wildlife deaths, just that we shouldn't down play or disregard the many ways we kill off wildlife in smaller numbers. They add up.

 

[archer wapiti]

I think he's just saying that the cat numbers are disputed, so taking the estimated lead poisoning numbers with a grain of salt might also be warranted.

 

[dotman]

I'm not against lead but why not look for better alternatives? I don't think the gov should force us but I think we should continue to demand better products and products that have less impact on the environment from companies, I want the best product overall, also are we not conservationists trying to improve habitat.

Being this reversal is for a last second Obama push we really will not see any effect from it other then the rules are now the same pre ban, pretty sure this doesn't change lead shot rules that have been in place for many years and are supported by most.

 

[MuleyFever]

I think he's just saying that the cat numbers are disputed, so taking the estimated lead poisoning numbers with a grain of salt might also be warranted.

Yeah, I am not trying to put words in his mouth, just pointing out one way it may be interpreted.

Taking the numbers with a grain of salt though puts us right there writing off the numbers that may be dying from lead poisoning. Like I said, I have no delusions of preventing all of the unnecessary deaths we are responsible for. Like dotman said though, we should always be looking for better alternatives, in all things. Isn't that the very nature of our species, continuous improvement? Aren't we always looking for better?

 

[archer wapiti]

Like dotman said though, we should always be looking for better alternatives, in all things. Isn't that the very nature of our species, continuous improvement? Aren't we always looking for better?

Agreed.

 

[Stid2677]

Solar farms and wind turbines kill more birds than lead ever will. Never hear much about birds getting vaporized or shredded by wind turbines.



Solar Power Towers Are 'Vaporizing' Birds | Popular Science

This Mojave Desert solar plant kills 6,000 birds a year. Here's why that won't change any time soon - LA Times

California solar power plants ignite birds mid-flight - YouTube

Obama admin regulation allows wind turbines to kill up to 4,200 bald eagles per company - Washington Times

Windfarms kill 10-20 times more than previously thought | Save the Eagles International

 

[archer wapiti]

Yup. All this clean energy has a price.

 

[Desk Jockey]

I think he's just saying that the cat numbers are disputed, so taking the estimated lead poisoning numbers with a grain of salt might also be warranted.

This.

To be clear -

I don't think incidental killing of wildlife is good at all.

I am somewhat suspect of the numbers that are suggested at 20 million killed by lead. I also think there is a mild hypocracy in the animal rights crowd that would likely own pets that kill more birds than lead ammo by a factor of 100x if the numbers can be believed.

On lead, I am pro all the way for a use what you want perspective. I think there is a variety of issues at play here. The one that concerns me most is the potential use of a lead ban as a way to make shooting less affordable and accessible. The environmental issues do concern me but not enough to favor a ban on lead.

As far as what I want to shot for hunting, I am thinking about non lead for my personal use.

 

[wildcat33]

I'm not against lead but why not look for better alternatives? I don't think the gov should force us but I think we should continue to demand better products and products that have less impact on the environment from companies, I want the best product overall, also are we not conservationists trying to improve habitat.

Theoretically I would like to see more tungsten options, but the price is significantly higher than lead or copper. would people actually be willing to pay for better alternatives? kent has tried it with tungsten. Nice-shot is 3-4$ a pop, neither seems too popular.

And to return to the ingestion point, The impact of wildlife ingesting lead is highly debatable and there are many other relevant factors. I think we should be more worried about US eating lead, and by that I don't mean us but our kids and pregnant mistresseses. I wonder what an X-ray of an elk looks like after getting hit with a big ol Berger vld. Can't be good.

 

[Tod osier]

I wonder what an X-ray of an elk looks like after getting hit with a big ol Berger vld. Can't be good.

This work has been done to my satisfaction to extrapolate to your scenario - not with Bergers with elk, but typical cup and core with deer and sheep (as in the wooly kind). The faster and more lightly constructed the more fragments. The lead particles move far (as in many inches) beyond the area of blood shot. Many are so small you can not detect them without an x-ray.

When I started to read these papers, I made the switch to copper for all my rifle hunting.

Cruz-Martinez, L. Grund, M. Redig, P. 2015. Quantitative assessment of bullet fragments in viscera of sheep carcasses as surrogates for white-tailed deer. Human-Wildlife Interactions 9(2):211-218

Grund, M. Cornicelli, L. Carlson,L. Butler, E. 2010. Bullet fragmentation and lead deposition in white-tailed deer and domestic sheep. Human-Wildlife Interactions 4(2):257-265

 

[kicker338]

The big problem to is how these studies, research or what ever come from. Come up with an idea, belief,want to make a point about it, do a bunch of research to justify your theory then the research becomes valid fact. Yes your research was slanted, discarded anything that disagreed with your theory but you proved your theory right. Right? Sounds like the story of the guy who hated his neighbor. Bumped into his neighbor one day with his bible in hand and proceeds to read from it to the neighbor. The bible says judos went out found a tree and hung himself. He turns to another page whih says. Go thou and do likewise. Turns to another page That says, What thou do do'est quickly. So many of these research's usually imply the same type of justification. Just my opinion.

 

[Broomd]

I'm as conservative as they come, and I'm also for the environment; and the way I see it lead presents a problem in/around wildlife. If we can use another avenue somewhat cost-effectively and get similar results, why not?

I've often wondered why someone hasn't incorporated using small natural rock pebbles into sinker manufacturing. Why keep tossing lead into our precious waterways?
The affects of lead on humans is well-documented. It seems prudent to avoid it around our wildlife.