Bikes in Wilderness Again

Billinsd

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Leave things the way they are which doesnt include bikes. I again mountian bike a fair bit on the endless trails around my home region.
What if you did not have many trails to ride where you lived? What if the trails you rode became undocumented after the area became a wilderness? Would you feel the same way? Most folks never think of what is really right or for others, just themselves.
When were old and cant hike we probably dont belong going in the wilderness anyways. Every man has their time.
That's Non Sequitur.
 

Billinsd

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You seem to think bikers would just stick to designated trails? I know I don't when i am hiking, so why would they?
Because it is a lot harder to ride a bike off trail than to hike off trail. There is no reason too. However, some could hike their bike. I do that in the forest. I will carry or push it up and down real steep terrain. What riders could also do is build undocumented trails. That is a possibility
How about motor bikes? Well hell thats not a big deal right?
What? Do you mean riding dirt bikes in the Wilderness? Who is advocating that?
Well hell I can get a quad out there now. Now we have hikers, bikers(both kinds) and quads out there driving around wherever they can.
In the wilderness? What about monster trucks and army tanks? So, you are saying if we let mtn bikes in the wilderness then people will be driving their trucks in the wilderness too? I doubt that.
You seem very entitled to land that is a privilege to use, it's not a right granted to you as a citizen.
I think it is a right for us to access "our" public lands and I do agree that there will be some restrictions. Some folks like LOTS of restrictions, some folks like FEW restrictions, more or less.
 

Billinsd

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Yep, science has confirmed this over and over. Aside from the obvious aesthetic impacts, there's the proven fact that animals like elk and mule deer are negatively impacted with more human intrusion.
Why not limit the number of people accessing the wilderness? Make a lottery system? Don't people on horses have less impact on deer and elk?
 
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Great argument. However, good arguments have been made in favor of mtn bikes in wilderness as well as arguments against. The politicians we elect will decide this issue right or wrong. By letting mtb bikes in the wilderness doesn't mean you are letting in all other previously prohibited methods of transportation. That's a straw man argument.

It's actually not. That ruling would allow a previously prohibited activity to occur. When does it stop?


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Because it is a lot harder to ride a bike off trail than to hike off trail. There is no reason too. However, some could hike their bike. I do that in the forest. I will carry or push it up and down real steep terrain. What riders could also do is build undocumented trails. That is a possibility What? Do you mean riding dirt bikes in the Wilderness? Who is advocating that? In the wilderness? What about monster trucks and army tanks? So, you are saying if we let mtn bikes in the wilderness then people will be driving their trucks in the wilderness too? I doubt that.I think it is a right for us to access "our" public lands and I do agree that there will be some restrictions. Some folks like LOTS of restrictions, some folks like FEW restrictions, more or less.

Your cherry picking questions I asked to another member, replying to his statements yet your passing them off like those are my feelings or beliefs.

It's also not a right to access public lands, no matter how much you think it should be.

It sounds like your fine with use restrictions as long as your happy with them and they don't restrict you.

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Billinsd

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Less impact than people not on horses. Animals are less afraid of people on horses than on foot.
 

DWarcher

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I will also tell you straight out that I enjoy wilderness. I like being the only guy who goes where I do because the majority is too lazy to walk there. However the day might come when I am too old or maybe too Ill to do it. So now I can't enjoy the outdoors anymore because I don't have to means to get there? That sucks.

Since probably 90% of my hiking/hunting takes place in designated wilderness areas, I agree wholeheartedly with your take on this. It WILL suck if someday when I can no longer take advantage of those wild lands. However, doesn't it seem a bit selfish to eliminate future generations from enjoying that same incredible experience of solitude just because YOU can't get there anymore?
 

Billinsd

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Your cherry picking questions I asked to another member, replying to his statements yet your passing them off like those are my feelings or beliefs.

It's also not a right to access public lands, no matter how much you think it should be.

It sounds like your fine with use restrictions as long as your happy with them and they don't restrict you.

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No, I was trying to understand what you were saying. I did not intend to pass them off as your opinion. This type of communication on posts is much more difficult than talking. Yes, you are correct, access our public lands is not a right. However, it is our land, we the people own it, not the blm or the forest circus. The agencies that administer these lands serve the people. I believe there should be some restrictions and believe there are way too many now. I'm not really ever "happy" with restrictions, however, I agree some are needed. Like most people I don't like it when things I enjoy get restricted, but I understand that some things I enjoy should and are restricted. Mtn bikes should have some restrictions. I believe in getting more folks into our public lands, even if it negatively effects my time in the outdoors. I don't ride horses, but want them to have access. I don't belive in motorized equipment in wilderness, and it getting developed. In fact the only thing I can think of allowing in their that isn't already allowed is wheels, like game carts, bikes, stollers, and I think scooters that are pulled by dogs. I may never ride my mtn bike in a wilderness if it becomes legal, because it's a long drive to me. I'm in favor of it, because I think it's the right thing to do. I try my best not to be selfish, or hypocritical as much as posdible and yes sometimes I am, because I'm human.
 
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Billinsd

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I'm real biased against regulation living in California. If I lived in another state I probably might be as intense and seemingly extreme in my views. If you live in California you know what I mean, if you don't you are very lucky!! I don't wish on anyone what has happened in California. I was born and raised here and it's not recognizeable any more.
 

Billinsd

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No, I'm far from trolling. Because I disagree with you. You must live a sheltered life. As far as change goes...how does it change everything? I drive a pretty nice truck, which apparently doesn't even compare to yours. If your vehicle can out do you on foot on a single track. I gotta see that car of yours. Point being a vehicle can only take you so far, then you park it and hoof it. Wilderness or no doesn't change that. An existing trail network only allows for so much....wilderness or not. I'm sorry if you can't see past the fog of emotion to see the logic in that. Or point me to some facts that support your argument. Like when has a wilderness designation not gone through and that ecosystem just went to shit. I don't think you can.....but I welcome the education. Nobody is changing anything by it not being wilderness. Everything stays exactly the same....except some guy wants to ride a bike on a trail you walk on. Trail stays the same.....land stays the same. Except that pesky guy on a bike. Damn that pesky bike....just ruined the whole place. Next he will want to build a condo there or something...all because he wanted a bike ride.

Since probably 90% of my hiking/hunting takes place in designated wilderness areas, I agree wholeheartedly with your take on this. It WILL suck if someday when I can no longer take advantage of those wild lands. However, doesn't it seem a bit selfish to eliminate future generations from enjoying that same incredible experience of solitude just because YOU can't get there anymore?
I don't understand what either of you are saying? Are you saying some day you won't be physically able to access wilderness, right? Dewarcher, what do you mean by "selfish to eliminate future generations from enjoying that same incredible experience of solitude just because YOU can't get there anymore?" What do you mean? What will happen to eliminate future generations from enjoying the wilderness? Mtn bikes?
 

DWarcher

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I don't understand what either of you are saying? Are you saying some day you won't be physically able to access wilderness, right? Dewarcher, what do you mean by "selfish to eliminate future generations from enjoying that same incredible experience of solitude just because YOU can't get there anymore?" What do you mean? What will happen to eliminate future generations from enjoying the wilderness? Mtn bikes?

I interpreted Shooter as saying that allowances should be made for those folks that for what ever reason cannot access designated wilderness areas. My opinion is that's a selfish point of view. When the day comes that I can no longer access these areas I hope I will be able to sit back, enjoy the memories that I've made there and be happy knowing that those pristine places are still available to my children and grandchildren.
 

Billinsd

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No, I'm far from trolling. Because I disagree with you. You must live a sheltered life. As far as change goes...how does it change everything? I drive a pretty nice truck, which apparently doesn't even compare to yours. If your vehicle can out do you on foot on a single track. I gotta see that car of yours. Point being a vehicle can only take you so far, then you park it and hoof it. Wilderness or no doesn't change that. An existing trail network only allows for so much....wilderness or not. I'm sorry if you can't see past the fog of emotion to see the logic in that. Or point me to some facts that support your argument. Like when has a wilderness designation not gone through and that ecosystem just went to shit. I don't think you can.....but I welcome the education. Nobody is changing anything by it not being wilderness. Everything stays exactly the same....except some guy wants to ride a bike on a trail you walk on. Trail stays the same.....land stays the same. Except that pesky guy on a bike. Damn that pesky bike....just ruined the whole place. Next he will want to build a condo there or something...all because he wanted a bike ride.

I interpreted Shooter as saying that allowances should be made for those folks that for what ever reason cannot access designated wilderness areas. My opinion is that's a selfish point of view. When the day comes that I can no longer access these areas I hope I will be able to sit back, enjoy the memories that I've made there and be happy knowing that those pristine places are still available to my children and grandchildren.
Thanks! I concur with you.
 

Billinsd

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No, I'm far from trolling. Because I disagree with you. You must live a sheltered life. As far as change goes...how does it change everything? I drive a pretty nice truck, which apparently doesn't even compare to yours. If your vehicle can out do you on foot on a single track. I gotta see that car of yours. Point being a vehicle can only take you so far, then you park it and hoof it. Wilderness or no doesn't change that. An existing trail network only allows for so much....wilderness or not. I'm sorry if you can't see past the fog of emotion to see the logic in that. Or point me to some facts that support your argument. Like when has a wilderness designation not gone through and that ecosystem just went to shit. I don't think you can.....but I welcome the education. Nobody is changing anything by it not being wilderness. Everything stays exactly the same....except some guy wants to ride a bike on a trail you walk on. Trail stays the same.....land stays the same. Except that pesky guy on a bike. Damn that pesky bike....just ruined the whole place. Next he will want to build a condo there or something...all because he wanted a bike ride.

Would you oppose those ideas? Or do you think they should be implemented?


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Yes, I would be against them.
 

Billinsd

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No, I'm far from trolling. Because I disagree with you. You must live a sheltered life. As far as change goes...how does it change everything? I drive a pretty nice truck, which apparently doesn't even compare to yours. If your vehicle can out do you on foot on a single track. I gotta see that car of yours. Point being a vehicle can only take you so far, then you park it and hoof it. Wilderness or no doesn't change that. An existing trail network only allows for so much....wilderness or not. I'm sorry if you can't see past the fog of emotion to see the logic in that. Or point me to some facts that support your argument. Like when has a wilderness designation not gone through and that ecosystem just went to shit. I don't think you can.....but I welcome the education. Nobody is changing anything by it not being wilderness. Everything stays exactly the same....except some guy wants to ride a bike on a trail you walk on. Trail stays the same.....land stays the same. Except that pesky guy on a bike. Damn that pesky bike....just ruined the whole place. Next he will want to build a condo there or something...all because he wanted a bike ride.

It's actually not. That ruling would allow a previously prohibited activity to occur. When does it stop?


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I see the domino, or slippery slope? It could stop right now, which it probaby will or end after bikes. It should be real difficult to change, which it is. If the country decides to do away with willderness and build condos, because that is what the owners of the land, we the people want, and are willing to legislate to get it done, so be it. I'm totally against that happening, of course. I'm in favor of allowing mtn bikes in the wilderness and the local areas restricting and/or regulating them. I'm not really convinced that mtn bikes were meant to be excluded from the wilderness. In any case if this fails, that's fine. It's not like wilderness is the only place to mtn bike either.
 
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Some mountain bikers and fatbikers are not following the rules. I wouldn't trust a rule allowing them in wilderness areas.

I live on the edge of public land in western Colorado. Yesterday evening I went for a 60 minute hike up Peak J (not real name) which sits right behind my house. The elevation gain to the peak is about 1,000 feet from my house. I can walk off my back porch, go about 100 yards, and I'm on a BLM trail to the summit. We had some stormy weather yesterday afternoon and the sunset last night was absolutely stunning.

However, I saw something else which brought my mind back to this thread: Several new pirated fatbike trails descending straight down from the peak.

I did a little off trail exploration and saw that fatbikers are quickly creating a number of new pirated trails. I did not see any fatbike trails on the mountain during my last hike, which was about 4 weeks ago. While following the new pirated trails last night, I came across an area where fresh sign showed a small herd of elk had been bedded (this is prime winter range). It looked like the bikers came through and busted the elk out of their beds.

Because the soil here at 7,000-8,000 feet is so loose, I am betting these new trails will cause significant erosion.

I just don't see a need to allow this sort of behavior in wilderness areas, and it will happen if mountain bikes in general are allowed. I'm a mountain biker, and my brother loves fatbikes, but there are good reasons for excluding them from wilderness.

I am in the North Fork Valley of Colorado. Any Rokslider is welcome to come hike with me and see what I'm talking about. It's a great training hike too.
 

DaveC

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Wilderness or no doesn't change that. An existing trail network only allows for so much....wilderness or not. I'm sorry if you can't see past the fog of emotion to see the logic in that. Or point me to some facts that support your argument. Like when has a wilderness designation not gone through and that ecosystem just went to shit. I don't think you can.....but I welcome the education. Nobody is changing anything by it not being wilderness.


Wilderness with a capitol W is different from wilderness meaning a place where human presence is of minimal influence. There are Wilderness areas that aren't very wilderness-y, and big wilderness areas that aren't Wilderness. Though there aren't too many of the later outside AK.

As for places that suffered from a failed or pending Wilderness designation, look at almost anywhere south of I70 in Utah. Plenty of proposed Wilderness, or WSAs which have been pending since the 70s, where continued grazing and mineral exploration has decimated endemic plants and added stress to native elk, deer, and sheep populations.
 
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I have fallen behind on this thread and am not sure I have much to add that has not already been offered. But I saw this yesterday and thought it may be of interest to some here. Miller: A win-win solution for Virginia's outdoors is threatened as never before | Opinion | roanoke.com

I'll try to catch back up on this discussion this evening. I would like to understand the issues and viewpoints so that I have an informed response when needed.
I was at a trailhead camp last year between bivy jaunts when a crew pulled in and loaded up to hit the elk woods. They all had backpacks but one of the four also had a fat tire bike. His buddy asked him "You really going to take the bike? The trail to the Wilderness boundary is only about a mile." His reply was "Yeah, but we're planning to go in 5 or 6 miles." His buddy says "Right but you'll have to stash it somewhere for the week. It's not legal in the Wilderness area so you can only ride it for the easiest first mile." He replied, "I don't care what they say about legal or not. I'm riding it the whole way all week. Other people take horses up there...." Then they all shrugged their shoulders and hit the trail.
 
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