Colorado BHA Position on res/nonres tags - missing the big picture

BuzzH

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The National BHA board does not interfere much, if at all, in most all of these issues, including if a Chapter wants to address a tag allocation issue.

Tag allocations are a big deal, and the implications for both Resident and NR hunters can be huge and as such, the BHA chapters absolutely should be involved.

I wonder if the Wyoming Chapter, that I happen to Chair, should have just stayed out of the "allocation" issue in regard to the special VS. regular fee bills that the Wyoming Outfitters and Guides Association has tried to run the last 2 Legislative sessions? You know, the 60/40 bill that would have "flipped" 60% of the NR deer, elk and pronghorn tags into the higher "special fee" pool from the current 40%. Oh, and if that would have happened, that full 60% of NR special priced tags would have cut out another 20% of the tags from the reduced price NR youth fee schedule.

The Wyoming Chapter put itself in a politically tough spot opposing that on behalf of NR hunters, when our Legislature was making, and successfully passed Legislation, that stripped 4.2 million in general fund money from our Department. Perhaps it would have been better if we just allowed NR to pay much higher priced fees on another 20% of every elk, deer, and pronghorn tag to take up the slack? Could have done that and avoided a Resident fee increase I suppose.

But, the Wyoming Chapter strongly opposed that legislation and has successfully killed it the last 2 sessions...and we'll kill it again if we have to. Why? Because our Chapter board wants to encourage NR youth hunters, via having 60% of the available pronghorn, elk, and deer tags available to them at the reduced fee rather than only 40%. We also believe that even NR license fees should be kept at a reasonable fee so that even the hunter of average means can come here to hunt.

According to what I'm reading here, many believe the Wyoming Chapter should have just stayed out of this, allowing this crap legislation to pass, because license allocations are out of our mission statement? Not true, its an issue for all sportsmen and the reason that many states have crap laws like transferable landowner tags, outfitter only tags, and other ridiculous tag set asides, is because no group stood up and took the issue on. Complacency has no place in wildlife politics, and no group is beyond its mission statement when it takes on these issues.

Also, each State absolutely has the right to discriminate against NR hunters any way it wants to, whether it be tag allocations, tag percentages, price, or even if they allow a NR to have a tag at all. Its been upheld in court case after court case.

The issue of Federal Public lands and wildlife held in trust for the citizens of the State its found in are 2 entirely, and completely different subjects. About like comparing apples and aardvarks.

When I hunt as a NR in other States, I am humbled that they even allow me to hunt their wildlife...they aren't required to. Whether that's offering 1 tag, 50 tags, 200 tags, 10%, 20%, or OTC opportunities, I graciously accept anything they are willing to give. Every tag I take as a NR hunter, means a Resident hunter doesn't get that opportunity...no way around that fact.

Finally, when I see the work that Residents in CO, WY, etc. put into their wildlife resources, I'm even more humbled by the generosity they show NR's. I don't see many NR's attending public meetings, Legislative sessions, meeting with legislators, elected officials, commissioners, etc. etc. etc. in support of the States wildlife resources. I don't see many NR's at work days, wildlife captures, tearing down fencing, cleaning up shooting areas, planting bitterbrush, installing guzzlers, etc. etc. that Residents spend thousands of volunteer hours doing. Not to mention that monetary lay-out supporting all sorts of NGO's that pay for a lot of wildlife related projects...most of that is from Residents.

So, I don't see where the Colorado Chapter is one bit out of line with taking a position on tag allocations...they've earned the right to comment and I fully support their efforts.
 
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TXCO

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BuzzH, thanks for you post and contribution to the discussion. What do you think as WY BHA is the most immediate fight/challenge in front of you today?

Separately in regards to nationwide voters, it looks like 33 of the 43 members of the House Resources Committee are from non Western states (excluding CA). CA actually would make a huge swing as its 11 of the 33. 15 of the 23 federal lands subcommittee seats are non Western states. Hunters in the those states who experience a great public land visit or hunt out west are much more likely to call and discuss with their representative their desire to keep their access, especially when prompted by an organization like BHA. Now what is very encouraging on the fight for public lands is to see how many members of the committee/subcommittee are from western states. On a percentage basis that is greater than actual representation in population and congress. This should mean good things as they listen to their constituents. Luckily Chaffetz is gone by the end of June but it would have been interesting to see what would have happened were he from a state other than Utah or the west and didnt have to face the local voter backlash. It will likely be tried again but from someone who doesnt have to stand in the line of fire.

If you are curious if your state is represented on the committee and would like to reach out to a rep, here is a link for the overall committee and federal lands subcommittee membership.

Office of the Clerk of the U.S. House of Representatives

Office of the Clerk of the U.S. House of Representatives
 

BuzzH

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TXCO,

What do I think is the most immediate challenge?

Depends on the day...during the Legislative session here in Wyoming, that can change from moment to moment, literally. There are typically no shortage of ridiculous bills that would negatively impact wildlife, wildlife management, Federal public lands, State trust lands, Resident Sportsmen, Non-Resident sportsmen, Wyoming Public Lands Initiative, etc. etc. I don't have the luxury of getting to pick and choose...

This last week, it was making recommendations as a member of the WGBLC moose committee, to WWTF, whether or not to fund over 100K worth of moose related wildlife projects.

Who knows what this next week will bring.

Nationally, PLT, fully funding Land Management Agencies, fully funding the Land and Water Conservation fund, continuing the Conservation Reserve Program, Wetland Reserve Program, Sage Grouse,....you get the picture. Lots going on and all in need of attention.
 
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realunlucky

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Buzz I have to disagree. This is a pretty shitty way to run a national group to let chapters run amuck as they see fit. The Wyoming and Colorado chapter moved in complete opposite directions. One helping and one trying to limit non resident opportunity. I gave BHA my money and support to follow it's mission statement period. Colorado chapter can choose to divide members into resident and non-resident groups fine 900 in favor 14100 opposed put that way it didn't seem like the membership is in favor. It doesn't make since to support a group who major goal supports mine than works to undermine my opportunity in others states. Colorado sportsman should unite if this there most important issue but use a different banner.

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realunlucky

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Focus on a agenda that brings and unifies supporters and their money. Sportsman can and should join multiple organizations​ to enhance thier personal agendas​.

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TXCO

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Some other organizations that fight many legal battles for hunters near and far, primarily on the national level but also on the state level and also work to increase the conservation of wildlife through hunting are:

Conservation Force
Wild Sheep Foundation
Conservation Vision
Safari Club International (which catches a bad rap for all the record books and high fence hunting but also has the largest lobbying force in DC for hunters and focuses on many key issues like fights with USFWS (wolves, importation of international trophies), legal mountain lion importation to California and even allowing hunting on Sundays in some states)

There are obviously many organizations geared towards hunters but these are ones who fight many of the legal and political battles similar to the NRA.
 

realunlucky

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Every time I'm close to becoming a bha member again, I read stuff like this...
I'm with you there Travis.
Being from Utah and getting burned multiple times from various "sportsman" groups​ I was leery of joining any group. Public lands is a huge fight and everyone needs to engage in it someway somehow. BHA isn't the only dog in the fight it was just currently the largest (when I joined) and I felt would have the most impact. Nothing like biting the hand that feeds you.

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That opens up a whole other can of worms. The illegals are probably getting resident status in most states for hunting just like education, and they don't even have a right to possess guns.

In this thread apparently if you live across the state line you are an illegal alien with no rights
 

elkduds

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There are obviously many organizations geared towards hunters but these are ones who fight many of the legal and political battles similar to the NRA.

It is fallacy to promote the NRA as a champion of preserving public land, in fact the opposite is true. The NRA is conspicuous by its absence in the PLT debate. They are politically aligned w the Republican Party, which is dedicated to PLT. Read it in their national policy platform. GOP Platform Committee Wants Feds To Turn Fed Lands Over To States ASAP – Talking Points Memo.

Back to the point of this thread, CO voters and their representatives decide who gets big game licenses. BHA CO chapter (I'm a member) is advocating for its members' interests and opinions on a state issue. They did it in WY, and you said that is great because you agree w them. We are exercising the same right in CO, and you squeal @ length in multiple forum venues. If you had sufficient public land for hunting in TX, you could mange it the way the majority of your amigos and their elected officials decide. But that ship sailed over a century ago.
 
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I still find it ironic that a few on here are up in arms over Colorado and saying the non-resident is losing public access, but not one person on here has questioned the Wyoming BHA member on why they are not fighting to open wilderness up for non-residents? Yep keep telling me how Colorado has taken away all of your access.
 
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It is fallacy to promote the NRA as a champion of preserving public land, in fact the opposite is true. The NRA is conspicuous by its absence in the PLT debate. They are politically aligned w the Republican Party, which is dedicated to PLT. Read it in their national policy platform. GOP Platform Committee Wants Feds To Turn Fed Lands Over To States ASAP – Talking Points Memo.

Back to the point of this thread, CO voters and their representatives decide who gets big game licenses. BHA CO chapter (I'm a member) is advocating for its members' interests and opinions on a state issue. They did it in WY, and you said that is great because you agree w them. We are exercising the same right in CO, and you squeal @ length in multiple forum venues. If you had sufficient public land for hunting in TX, you could mange it the way the majority of your amigos and their elected officials decide. But that ship sailed over a century ago.

My intent was not to say the NRA did anything for public land but that the NRA fights legal battles and has a large lobby for guns to use as a comparison to other groups fighting on the hill for hunters rights


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Ftguides

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Hot topic and tons of good points from each side. I can see why folks can have a passionate and informed view on either side. I'm going to throw my view out there, even though it probably isn't the most prudent thing to do. In the nature of full disclosure, I am an outfitter and come from an outfitting/ranching family. I've dealt with federal land management, state wildlife management, etc... as much as anyone.

Things I will grant:
1) Colorado is fair to non-residents in many facets of their policies (the OTC opportunities, as mentioned by others)
2) Game is owned by state residents
3) BHA has a challenging environment to work within on these matters, particularly as the different state chapters work on things
4) One of the tenants of the North American wildlife management policy is to avoid privatization of wildlife

All of the above points have been explained in detail by other posters.

Here are my big ones:
1) A stance that state wildlife management is a completely separate topic from federal land management/ownership, is absurd. Sorry, it is. If you believe otherwise, you are naive. The game is owned by the state residents, but when is the last time residents sent the feds a pasture rent check? Those elk, deer, sheep, goats eat a lot of feed. If I have major crop damage or hay consumption by game on my private land, guess what? The state pays up. This has been held by courts. So yes, land ownership matters in a real way, with legal precedence.

Who makes decisions on non-hunting land use that directly affects game? (mountain bike trails on winter range, oil/gas, etc...). Feds. Does consideration for game populations affect other dollar yielding activities on the forest under a multi-use doctorine? It sure as hell does.

There are many levels of the two being intertwined.

Another question is the definition of what residents really own. Let's take goats. There is very good evidence (many, if not most, bios are leaning this way) that mountain goats are not native to much of their current range in CO. All the alpine habitat is federally owned and goats do have an impact on it. What this means is that the feds (representing non-residents) might just have the legal right to put a bullet in the head of every goat in this state. Troubling to say the least, for both resident and non-resident hunters. Makes me shiver, due to my passion for goat hunting.

2) Non-residents pay more than their fair share of game management costs in this state. Others have gone over the numbers, and this is a fact. Any game manager in this state will tell you that OTC, non-resident bull licenses are the life blood of game management in this state. That includes non-elk management.

3) I have always found the argument that "outfitters are subsidized by the state with non-resident tags" as an enigma. I'll keep this short, as I can't deny bias. Outfitters are service providers to hunters who hold tags. We don't own tags, wildlife, etc... No body gives us tags, wildlife, etc... to sell. Land owners, not outfitters, are given tags (to compensate for game land-use and habitat work) through multiple programs.

If an outfitter provides a service that gets hunters into more remote populations of game than they would hunt otherwise, we are increasing revenue for state game management with less impact on game populations. Outfitters do pay the feds for being on their land. This means outfitted clients, unlike other hunters, do pay the feds to be on the land via pass through costs. It's much more money than you think, one of the few revenue based taxes that exists. Every wilderness outfitter I know does another minimum of $10-20k worth of trail maintenance every year.

As a last comment, outfitting in the states is one of the worst businesses on planet earth from an economic standpoint. Yes, some make a good living, but they would make the same living with half the stress/work doing something else. We are fundamentally irrational people when it comes to our career choices.

4) Now, here is the big one. The one that I think we should all think deeply about. The one the original poster, I believe, is most concerned with. Colorado gets more hunters into public land, big game hunting than any other state. You can argue more than all the other states combined. Those hunters are supporters of great organizations that are looking out for us as a whole. They are the ones with the critical mass to get things done. Without Colorado as a "birthplace" for new big game hunters, we will not have big game hunting in its current form in the continental United States 50 years from now. These organizations will not have the support they need.

As it relates directly to Colorado... the biggest issue facing hunting (resident and non-resident) here in the foreseeable future is predator management. Lion hunting is on a knife blade. Bear populations are going ballistic, with essentially no management due to the political environment. Without the support of organizations, mainly funded by non-residents, both of these issues will go the non-hunting way by a landslide. Opportunity for both residents and non-residents (regardless of tag split) will fall off a cliff. Even a resident with little care for hunting on the national level, should think about this when it comes to pushing more on non-residents. Colorado resident hunters are insignificant politically without support from non-resident hunters.

Another perspective.
 
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Some wilderness area, somewhere
I still find it ironic that a few on here are up in arms over Colorado and saying the non-resident is losing public access, but not one person on here has questioned the Wyoming BHA member on why they are not fighting to open wilderness up for non-residents? Yep keep telling me how Colorado has taken away all of your access.

I find the logic in this a bit appalling. Basically your argument comes down to a different state screwed a non resident, my state should be able to do it as well. Is there no other argument for restricting non resident hunter access to CO?
Personally, I tend to agree that non resident hunter access is good in CO, but I also question whether this is a situation BHA should be involved in.
Either way I am not a CO resident so my opinion probably doesn't matter much.
 
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It is fallacy to promote the NRA as a champion of preserving public land, in fact the opposite is true. The NRA is conspicuous by its absence in the PLT debate. They are politically aligned w the Republican Party, which is dedicated to PLT. Read it in their national policy platform. GOP Platform Committee Wants Feds To Turn Fed Lands Over To States ASAP – Talking Points Memo.

Back to the point of this thread, CO voters and their representatives decide who gets big game licenses. BHA CO chapter (I'm a member) is advocating for its members' interests and opinions on a state issue. They did it in WY, and you said that is great because you agree w them. We are exercising the same right in CO, and you squeal @ length in multiple forum venues. If you had sufficient public land for hunting in TX, you could mange it the way the majority of your amigos and their elected officials decide. But that ship sailed over a century ago.

Ship was never there, unless you're talking about the Republic of Texas selling what is now the Majority of NM and big chunk of CO to the US.
 
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Backpack Hunter I was being sarcastic. Colorado has not taken any access whatsoever from non-residents. You can use all public land including wilderness areas. The R/NR split only applies to draw tags, there is still OTC tags. You can also buy a voucher for trophy areas, skip the draw, and hunt an area like 61 for elk every year. You will pay for it, but guess what the price is the same for everyone resident or non
 

realunlucky

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Your correct Orion this isn't a public land access issue. So f**k the Colorado chapter and their opinion of tag allocation. You don't get to use the national BHA banner to fluff your own pillow. If they allow it then people should and I hope so take thier support elsewhere. If the national leadership (funny with no guidance) allows a wedge to be driven then they deserve the consequences.
Colorado residents want more of the cake OK but you should not be afforded the opportunity to use the clout of BHA who majority of members interests this has a negative impact.

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