CWD possible for humans to contract

[5MilesBack]

My opinion is.........we're all gonna die of something eventually. Some maybe a lot sooner than they ever expected. I'd worry more about having my affairs in order and knowing where you're going after you die. I'd rather die from eating elk meat than most any other way I can imagine.

 

[cuerro viejo]

That said the deer farming industry has been rife with CWD for years and seems to pretty much turns a blind eye to it. They seek to avoid regulation at every turn, move deer constantly between facilities and states, have more escapes than they want to admit and absolutely pose a threat to wild populations. The whole industry stinks.

Not all the industry has CWD. Now that live testing is coming on board I think it will clean things up quickly.

With that said Texas CWD didn’t come from deer farming. In fact better question is how did NM get CWD because it wasn’t from farming. How did KS get it?

I can go one and one. Fact of the matter is if you want to find CWD, test for it.

We have bigger problems then CWD in fact CWD may be a result of some of the highest concentration of animal on limited habitat we have seen in centuries.

I’m not a deer breeder guy and infact can’t stand the practice but CWD isn’t a breeder disease

 

[LostArra]

I do think there is some understatement by state wildlife departments, Wyoming in particular.

Last year we were at a mandatory hunter stop with 5 cow elk in coolers. Not one word was mentioned about CWD testing. More about proof of sex.
The officials were great guys but I would have thought they would discuss it since SE Wyoming is the center of CWD in that state.
Also, read the regs regarding CWD testing. Pretty confusing and it's not real simple to get testing done in Wyoming unless you want to drive to Laramie when the lab is open.
They don't want you hauling the head around but you have no choice unless you can be sure you're removing the retropharyngeal lymph nodes and not salivary glands for testing.

 

[Poser]

I don't claim to be an expert on CWD and I'm hesitant to argue with a Texan about high fencing, but my understanding is that concentrated feeding is what often results in the spread of CWD through saliva and mucus. Since deer farming and high fencing concentrate feeding to the same areas over and over again and, particular, the use of bait piles cause hyper-concentrated feeding, the spread of the disease can be directly correlated to these aspects. Where CWD had popped up in isolated states could be attributed to traveling hunters, hence the restrictions on transporting carcasses, but you could also look at the captive populations. Sometimes these farms and high fence ranches go out of business and cut their "livestock" loose. Hog farmers have done this on occasion in areas I have hunted when pork prices plummet, but I observed this first hand when a bank foreclosed up on a high fence farm near a hunting lease and we all of a sudden began seeing red deer and Sitka deer. Deer farmers operate in somewhat of a grey area of regulations since the stage game agencies have little to any control over it and these operations are small enough and isolated enough not to attract much attention from the USDA. I'd be remiss if I failed to point out that deer farms are pyramid schemes. They don't often generate profits from slaughter, rather selling "breeder" buck seamen to other startups. In that sense, they are reliant on the continual opening of new deer farms in order to be profitable.


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[Gerard Marcaurele]

I said some stuff in another thread that was I'll informed, so I went ahead and studied up on the prevalence of CWD in Tx. The results were a bit melancholic. There have been 32 cases of CWD in captive deer and 18 cases in free range deer in this state. The first positives were mule deer that were free range. However, recent prevalence in breeding pens has given rise to the idea that it is a high fence problem alone. This is just not a completely valid statement, as the first documented cases had nothing to do with a high fence. The issue is multifaceted and will get worse before it gets better.

Personally, the high fence places don't bother me, as long as the CWD stays within that fence. I don't get anything out of hunting places like that except for easy meat in the freezer. I won't get into the breeder industry, other than saying that confining a deer into 5 acre pens is ridiculous and goes against the very essence of what wildlife is supposed to be.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

The gist I got from the rienella podcast was that in looking at mad cow they were refeeding carcasses of sick cows (with concentrated prions they did not yet know about) to cows to boost protein and caused a wide spread infection of prions across the herds which then meant widespread exposure to consumers. From that large scale exposure some made the jump to humans at a very low infection rate. Apparently a cannibalistic tribe that ate its dead out of respect experienced a similar exposure/outbreak.

My arm chair quarterback take is CWD is likely very similar, if there is a large infected population and large consumption of it then eventually a case of human infection in the grand scheme is likely in my mind while the likelihood for any given individual is actually low. So personally I'll not hunt CWD hot spots year after year and consider my exposure/likelihood low, if my hunting areas become CWD hot spots I'll start getting stuff tested and decide how to proceed from there. But I'm a "shit happens for a variety of reasons to a variety of people" kind of guy, the world isn't bubble wrapped but also don't play in traffic mindset.

Ideally they'll develop a vaccine sooner or later and future generations won't have this concern.

 

[jmez]

They'll never develop a vaccine. Not enough market to make it worth while.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

They'll never develop a vaccine. Not enough market to make it worth while.

There is a lot of money in deer/elk hunting (tags/gear/etc), if CWD goes wide spread and actually starts killing off herds that is a lot of money lost so never say never.

 

[cnelk]

What's the difference if deer herds get killed off by severe winters?
Happens a lot and I dont hear much about revenue lost

I remember back in the '70s in Minnesota when deer seasons actually got cancelled due to no deer.

Again. The CWD topic is 'fodder'

 

[cuerro viejo]

I don't claim to be an expert on CWD and I'm hesitant to argue with a Texan about high fencing, but my understanding is that concentrated feeding is what often results in the spread of CWD through saliva and mucus. Since deer farming and high fencing concentrate feeding to the same areas over and over again and, particular, the use of bait piles cause hyper-concentrated feeding, the spread of the disease can be directly correlated to these aspects. Where CWD had popped up in isolated states could be attributed to traveling hunters, hence the restrictions on transporting carcasses, but you could also look at the captive populations. Sometimes these farms and high fence ranches go out of business and cut their "livestock" loose. Hog farmers have done this on occasion in areas I have hunted when pork prices plummet, but I observed this first hand when a bank foreclosed up on a high fence farm near a hunting lease and we all of a sudden began seeing red deer and Sitka deer. Deer farmers operate in somewhat of a grey area of regulations since the stage game agencies have little to any control over it and these operations are small enough and isolated enough not to attract much attention from the USDA. I'd be remiss if I failed to point out that deer farms are pyramid schemes. They don't often generate profits from slaughter, rather selling "breeder" buck seamen to other startups. In that sense, they are reliant on the continual opening of new deer farms in order to be profitable.

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Texas hasn’t allowed importation of out of state deer for well over a decade . The current 32 deer have been trace back to one momma whom doesn’t have it but her twins did. She was AI’d via seamen from a northern deer. Those facilities have been de-populated. The owner is the one that tested the twin that tested positive.

From a time line you can look at decades of testing and breeders and TX just now got our first breeder hit two years ago. Since then state has upped their testing to include state wide low fence deer. They have gotten more hits on random Low fence locations with no HF facilities anywhere with in 300 miles. By shear number of tests positives it can conclude its more prevalent in Free range then in breeder pens. You can pretty much rule out dumping also it was Panhandle Mulie deer and elk. Not to mention breeders get shut down when deer disappear. They don’t play with bad record keeping

Nobody is 100% positive how it’s transmitted, it’s not out of reason to suspect if I fed my cattle alfalfa from CO, and if it has deer or elk pooped prions on it and a deer also eats it, it could get CWD. That’s actually how they first hypothesized how The TX breeder got it.

Going forward the only test we had was dead test. Live testing is now coming on board. I think live testing will wipe it out of Texas breeders quick.

Now our original Free range Low fence hits, I suspect we have had it there for years, coyotes are just good at covering up evidence.

If you truly believe in the CWD hysteria there are only three safe populations; isolated populations that don’t migrate, the genetically resistance and those that are double fenced and not supplemented fed.

Me, I’m not pointing fingers at a segment just to point fingers because I don’t like them even though I truly dont.

 

[Aculous]

What's the difference if deer herds get killed off by severe winters?
Happens a lot and I dont hear much about revenue lost

I remember back in the '70s in Minnesota when deer seasons actually got cancelled due to no deer.

Again. The CWD topic is 'fodder'

I don't think its a money topic, I get where you are coming from but I think you hear about it when theres funding because thats when they have money to publish the information or to do a new study on it. So doctors and wildlife personnel care about the topic, but they only get to talk about it in regards to a formal study and if a study hasn't come out that definitively says its harmful they can't act on it.

The issue I see is that like my cousin who works at national jewish and does medical research, specially with animals and did research and education up in laramie too, we just don't know what prions effect in the body. There was also a conversation about how long it takes to manifest in a human, if its 50 years and you're 35 well...probably not going to see anything. A lot of medical professionals talk about not eating the brains of any animal but also the possibility of issues if you eat the organ meat. But most of them will say eating the muscle meat should be ok, but since they don't know most people just go high and to the right if it tests positive.

I'm all for CWD testing and I am not going to eat the liver or organ meat of an infected animal. Meat that is muscle meat should be fine. I think the point is to just take caution as much as possible. And I am all for more information or better information.

My issue with this is that we're not testing elk too...I don't know why. Also testing is really expensive which doesn't make sense to me, federally there should be a program that every state participates in since we're talking about an issue that effects animals on a lot of federal land as well as most of the country. But then again USDA and FDA don't give a shit about people...just special interests and big money so I don't see that happening.

 

[cuerro viejo]

The gist I got from the rienella podcast was that in looking at mad cow they were refeeding carcasses of sick cows (with concentrated prions they did not yet know about) to cows to boost protein and caused a wide spread infection of prions across the herds which then meant widespread exposure to consumers. From that large scale exposure some made the jump to humans at a very low infection rate. Apparently a cannibalistic tribe that ate its dead out of respect experienced a similar exposure/outbreak.

My arm chair quarterback take is CWD is likely very similar, if there is a large infected population and large consumption of it then eventually a case of human infection in the grand scheme is likely in my mind while the likelihood for any given individual is actually low. So personally I'll not hunt CWD hot spots year after year and consider my exposure/likelihood low, if my hunting areas become CWD hot spots I'll start getting stuff tested and decide how to proceed from there. But I'm a "shit happens for a variety of reasons to a variety of people" kind of guy, the world isn't bubble wrapped but also don't play in traffic mindset.

Ideally they'll develop a vaccine sooner or later and future generations won't have this concern.

The meat eater pod cast was very disheartening. It talked of long term population declines yet we are at record high concentration numbers in shrinking fringe habitat. CWD can be transported for sure, 100%, but come on, hypothesis that Norway raindeer and moose that these two populations that are 250 miles away was via deer lures is dumb.

Whitetail lures for raindeer/caribou come one!

 

[jmez]

There is a lot of money in deer/elk hunting (tags/gear/etc), if CWD goes wide spread and actually starts killing off herds that is a lot of money lost so never say never.

Not near enough money to develop a vaccine. Not even close.

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[cuerro viejo]

Not near enough money to develop a vaccine. Not even close.

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If they haven’t found a vaccine for cattle with its Mad cow market regulations, it’s not looking good for deer and elk.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

What's the difference if deer herds get killed off by severe winters?
Happens a lot and I dont hear much about revenue lost

I remember back in the '70s in Minnesota when deer seasons actually got cancelled due to no deer.

Again. The CWD topic is 'fodder'

I'm talking on a national scale lacking healthy adults to repopulate not select areas or a % of the herd that will rebuild over the next few years.

There certainly is some "fodder" in the subject but the fact there is something that does infect animals, degenerates them, and spreads among them is not fodder. The fact a similar prion in cattle did make a selective leap to infect humans also is not fodder. Long story short can't just pretend there is zero issue or zero concern, that is putting ones head in the sand. But the sky isn't falling currently either.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

Not near enough money to develop a vaccine. Not even close.

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Never know what science will stumble across in any realm whether its CWD or a multitude of other diseases in humans. Its foolish to say never about such things. Don't take that to mean I assume there are lots of folks working on it or anything, I just don't rule out human intelligence in the long term. We've solved many things over the years and have MANY to go. All it takes is a breakthrough even if unrelated/random to connect some dots.

 

[jmez]

Huge difference between figuring out a vaccine and getting a company to go through the approval process to market a vaccine.

Someone may figure one out, it will never be produced and marketed to the public.

 

[jmez]

I don't think its a money topic, I get where you are coming from but I think you hear about it when theres funding because thats when they have money to publish the information or to do a new study on it. So doctors and wildlife personnel care about the topic, but they only get to talk about it in regards to a formal study and if a study hasn't come out that definitively says its harmful they can't act on it.

The issue I see is that like my cousin who works at national jewish and does medical research, specially with animals and did research and education up in laramie too, we just don't know what prions effect in the body. There was also a conversation about how long it takes to manifest in a human, if its 50 years and you're 35 well...probably not going to see anything. A lot of medical professionals talk about not eating the brains of any animal but also the possibility of issues if you eat the organ meat. But most of them will say eating the muscle meat should be ok, but since they don't know most people just go high and to the right if it tests positive.

I'm all for CWD testing and I am not going to eat the liver or organ meat of an infected animal. Meat that is muscle meat should be fine. I think the point is to just take caution as much as possible. And I am all for more information or better information.

My issue with this is that we're not testing elk too...I don't know why. Also testing is really expensive which doesn't make sense to me, federally there should be a program that every state participates in since we're talking about an issue that effects animals on a lot of federal land as well as most of the country. But then again USDA and FDA don't give a shit about people...just special interests and big money so I don't see that happening.

They are testing elk in SD. Most all of the cases here recently have been in elk, deer cases are actually pretty low.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

Huge difference between figuring out a vaccine and getting a company to go through the approval process to market a vaccine.

Someone may figure one out, it will never be produced and marketed to the public.

I was thinking something on the animal level and then ideally working it out of the population via broadcast inoculation long term. But no sense wondering about the logistics on that (yes very complex) when it doesn't even exist.

 

[5MilesBack]

But then again USDA and FDA don't give a shit about people...just special interests and big money so I don't see that happening.

Given that the majority of USDA's funding goes to food stamps and welfare that must be one big money special interest. I wonder who's lobbying for them. But you're right about one thing.....the USDA and their lobbyists don't give a crap about people......it's all about power.