Wolf Facts?

[mtluckydan]

Elk Tracks: Yellowstone Elk Population Falls, Concern Grows


In response to the facts I choose to believe please read the above links. I am open to your response unless you want to blame it on global warming errr climate change...

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[wapitibob]

If I see a Wolf post and Toby Bridges, Ryan Benson, or Jason Hariston's name, I quit reading.

fixed it

 

[mtluckydan]

Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks :: Wolf Population & Distribution

A good idea about wolf packs in Montana - open map to get a better view. Keep in mind this is a very conservative estimate based on the source. There are more active packs than this map depicts.

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[mtluckydan]

So when you start applying the numbers of what the wolves are eating on a broader basis based on the estimates reported above, the numbers get quite large Fwiw.

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[slick]

The article you posted says "wolves are not the exclusive reason for the decline in the Yellowstone elk herd". Therefore substantiating that other factors including US(humans/hunters), weather, and natural population fluctuations are also part of the decline. In my first post I said I don't deny that wolves affect game population levels, but to believe that they are the sole reason elk herds are what they are is ignorance.


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[mtluckydan]

Actually, grizzly bears and black bears have the highest reported impact on recruitment with elk calves before 6 months of age and then wolves on both cow elk and the calves in the winter when the bears are mostly hibernating. Again, you try to make your argument by taking one sentence out of context and try to discredit the entire article.

I don't believe I said wolves were the only reason the elk population declined drastically in Gardner. I believe I said the elk population declined drastically to very low levels after wolves were illegally introduced using an inappropriate source of funding.

If you step away from Yellowstone and look at the Frank Church River of No Return Wilderness, where grizzly bears & special cow hunts aren't a factor, the elk population there has declined drastically as well. Funny thing, somehow it coincides with the reintroduction & increasing population of wolves. Another funny thing, just like in Montana, a Federal judge stops management of wolves because of lawsuits by environmental groups.

In the end, there are articles that have outright denial that wolves are the cause of declining elk populations. Wolves may simply be the straw that broke the camels back. I don't think anyone that spends time in the woods in any of these states doesn't think wolf impact has been severe.

If delisting had occurred when the population & pack level stated was obtained, maybe there wouldn't have been as much distaste by hunters & ranchers. Also, maybe the wildlife & domestic losses would have been more acceptable. Again, another example of a federal agency doing what they want regardless of rules or consequences. It took an act of Congress to get them delisted. The parameters were reached years before that timeframe.

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[slick]

Forgot about lions in the Bitterroot-population twice as high, predation rates on elk higher than expected also -even more so than wolves if i remember reading right.
So not every game population is affected the same by wolves.

And again, I'm not disagreeing with you that wolves don't affect population levels. But given the right opportunity (increased tags, late cow hunts, extended seasons) hunters have the potential for a far wider reaching influence on populations.

I guess I think wolves have a place in the ecosystem, and you don't. And ultimately that is what we disagree on.


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[BuzzH]

mtluckydan,

Lots of conjecture in your post along with a lot of things that just aren't true about wolves.

The elk calf mortality study in the Bitterroot clearly showed that lions were the number 1 predator on elk calves...and by a landslide.

How many people do you know that hunt lions in the Frank Church Wilderness? Are there any lions in there?

How do 6 month shoulder seasons impact elk in Montana, in particular areas that are either at or below objective where these shoulder seasons occur? How about over-issuing antlerless elk tags for decades in Montana that are valid unit-wide? How about creating "trophy lion" management in most of regions 1 and 2? Any correlation between reducing lion harvest by 90% in those regions and elk declines?

How about 11 weeks of general hunting in Montana? Humans have any impact? How about the recent "cow weeks" that the MTFWP conducted in the mid-2000's that allowed anyone with a general elk tag to kill cows in many areas of region 2?

How about the new proposals of allowing unlimited elk b-tags in most of region 2? Better yet, if elk are in the chit due to wolves, why does the FWP even allow hunters to kill 2 elk?

Do you want me to go on, or do you want to just continue to beat the worn out drum that the wolves ate all the elk?

As to the feds, it wasn't their fault that delisting was delayed, it was the fault of the State that I live in right now, Wyoming. The EIS was pretty clear that all 3 states had to have an accepted plan, WY's was not acceptable and was being challenged in court. The reason for the Simpson/Tester rider was for ID and MT to unhitch themselves from WY's failed wolf management plan. That allowed both ID and MT to move forward with State Management without Wyoming.

Some of the things you state are true, some partially true, and some aren't true at all...and lots you fail to mention, either because you don't know, or conveniently leave out to further an agenda.

The bottom line is that WY, ID, and MT all have wolf management and are actively managing wolves...time to move on and get with the program.

 

[BuzzH]

I would also take anything Jim Beers says with a grain of salt...

He's an angry conspiracy guy that makes more than a handful of unsubstantiated claims, and also fair to note none of his issues with the USFWS seemed to be a problem until after he was canned.

Seems to be more of a disgruntled employee with an ax to grind than a whistleblower.

I'm also not going to believe a word he says, when he makes claims like, "wolves can be used by the Government to spread smallpox".

The way it works in real life, "without proof, it didn't happen"...Beers has no proof. Which is pretty amazing considering he was in charge of over-seeing PR funds...yet not even a single memo?

His credibility is in line with Toby Bridges.

 

[mtluckydan]

Actually, with 38% of the mortality in the Bitteroot Elk study classified as unknown, several points higher than the mountain lion mortality, I would say that's far from conclusive. Just convenient. Spending 30-50 days a year shed hunting every year, I've found hundreds of animals killed by both wolves & mountain lions. I would predict a high proportion of the unknowns as more likely wolves than mountain lions. There is very little left when wolves get done. Also, in region 1 in areas I travel, lions prefer whitetail to elk. I'm not saying they don' t kill them, just saying they prefer whitetail. I've found dozens of mature whitetail bucks lions killed.

Again, you take statements out of context and accuse me of leaving points out. I recall saying there are some studies that say declines in specific elk herds are not from wolves. I'm not sure how I could be more clear. I never said lions weren't a factor in game animal deaths. I revert back to my original statement regarding the illegal use of funds to pay for the reintroduction of wolves.

I don't participate in any late season hunts and don't agree with many things MTFWP does. However, I find it interesting that many people who complain about the low elk or deer numbers in an area are eager participants in those same hunts. To each their own.

I give Wyoming credit as the only state that told the feds f*** themselves with respect to wolf management. Montana did the least effective job and actively accepted money from them. Following the money is usually the best way to determine the facts. Try finding published costs of the entire wolf reintroduction and how much each of the states received. Please publish those amounts on here because I would really like to see those figures.

I'm not bashing any individual or agency. However, I am saying the information Jim Beers has spoken out with has not been rebuked. I would also say these responses are pretty typical - take something out of context or bash an individual because an effective argument can't be sustained.


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[BuzzH]

mtluckydan,

Your bias is obviously showing...as per your last post and the ones before.

The Bitterroot study is the most recent and best calf mortality done in Montana that I'm aware of. The 38% unknown, isn't different than most other mortality studies, look up some others. It shows integrity in a study to not "guess" at what caused mortality if you cant be conclusive, its how studies work. I'm of the opinion that mortality in the 38% that couldn't be proven is most likely a mix of causes, and I agree some of them could be wolf, some lion, some bears, and some that aren't even caused by predation.

Just because you don't like the conclusion of scientifically conducted study, doesn't mean it lacks credibility. For the record, even the researchers were surprised at the conclusion, as the hypothesis was that wolves were responsible for a majority of calf mortality. I kept an open mind and was getting updates throughout the study via RCFWA, which I'm a life member of, and also helped fund the study.

As to the PR funds, the only "proof" you've provided is belly-aching from a disgruntled employee with an ax to grind and conspiracy theories of the G using wolves to spread small pox. I wont apologize for finding anything that wing-nut has to say, as even remotely credible. How does a guy in charge of the PR funding not have an email, a memo, a recording...anything to back up his claims? He doesn't, and again, without proof, it flat didn't happen...that's the way it works.

Also, shoulder seasons are not "late hunts" many open August 15 and extend through Feb. 15. I also put no blame on the average sportsmen in Montana that participates in those seasons...the FWP is charged with managing wildlife in Montana. How many hunters out of a sample of 100 have taken more than high school biology class? When the FWP issues tags, the average hunter is under the assumption that the FWP believes the herds can handle it. Its not a hunters job to self-regulate, that's what our license fees are paying for. Whether you participate or not, is your choice, but I wont throw those that do participate under the bus.

Also, you aren't the only person on planet earth that spends quite a bit of time out in the sticks...

What I've seen happen to elk in Regions 1, 2, and 3 has a shit-load more to do with biologists like John Vore, Mike Thompson, etc. declaring war on elk, than anything all predators combined could do.

Its also not my responsibility to provide you with the information regarding, "following the money"...that's on you, you're the one making the claim, back it up.

 

[Jon Boy]

Montana suspends elk hunting near Gardiner to protect vulnerable herd | Hunting | montanauntamed.com

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I don't like wolves and I don't hate them. But the reason for that closure and the piss poor bull to cow ratio in the Gardiner basin is warren Johnson, his pack of un-ethical guides, and the other 10 outfitters operating in the area that execute every legal bull that comes across Deckard flats. Been there, done it, got the t-shirt.

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[coiloil37]

Here's a study that has very little to do with the USA but a lot to do with wolves. It's shamelessly copy and pasted from a local forum.

Do Woodland Caribou need old growth and lichen to thrive, even survive?

Will wolves exterminate Caribou if given the chance, in opposition to this so called "Balance in Nature" concept?


An isolated Island in Ontario offered researchers an opportunity to learn.

See how fast things happen....

1982 - Eight caribou are translocated from Slate Island to Michipicoten Island, a 71 square mile Provincial Park. No wolves present, No hunting allowed.

2011 - Caribou herd is estimated at 680.
- Noteworthy is the Island is not considered prime caribou habitat, no lichen.
Caribou thrived without this food source, considered Critical by some.

2012- Four wolves found on Island, believed to have crossed to the Island by ice during an unusual cold spell.

2017 - Wolf pack has grown to 18.

2017 - Caribou herd has been reduced to 30!
A 95% reduction in just Four years....

With the experiment at and end due to an inevitable extirpation of the remaining 'Bou, government officials are preparing to translocate the remaining caribou off Michipicoten and back to Slate.... social licence has removed the option to kill the wolves...


Lessons learned.

Woodland Caribou DO NOT need old growth as a food source for survival.
One pack of wolves wiped out a herd of 700 caribou in just Four years!

The government will choose to translocate endangered Caribou rather than kill a few wolves.


Michipicoten Island - Wikipedia

 

[mtluckydan]

Jim Beers needs letters of recommendation for US Fish & Wildlife Service now - This West Is OUR West

The above link has both a short version and long version of his resume, work history and professional writings as well as some major federal cases he participated in for fish & wildlife violations at the federal level.

I know nothing about the website its posted on as I'm sure someone will certainly discredit that as well.

I would say in my opinion he had a long and distinguished career. You can try & discredit him with a few simple sentences but most reasonable people would not agree based on his credentials.

As far as government documents that may or may not have existed regarding the theft of PR money, based on the 33,000 plus emails they can't seem to recover from the previous Secretary of State I wouldn't put too much weight on that.

Again I would point to the out of context statements with respect to the Bitteroot Elk Study. First & foremost the study states that unlike other study areas in Montana, Idaho & Wyoming - the study area contained a greater density of cats than wolves. Also , back to my earlier point about unknown mortality occurrences being greater than the lion percentage - refer to page 70 of the study. "However, our mortality classifications may have been more conservative than some studies due to our strict classification of mortality causation." I'm not saying that's bad just not conclusive - ie cats definitely killed more elk than wolves when the unknown percentage was higher than the known cat kills.

The study also clearly states on page 58 that other studies in greater Yellowstone, Idaho, Montana & Wyoming showed wolves as being the most important source of mortality for elk calves less than 90 days old. Portraying the Bitteroot study results as applying across Montana and elsewhere is clearly not accurate or appropriate.

I guess bashing all the FWP biologists in a sentence or two also seems to an acceptable argument as well. I don't always agree with their decisions, but would say between politics and radical environmentalists they have a difficult job to do. I doubt the majority of the rational folks don't think they are declaring war on the elk. Probably just the opposite.

I disagree with the statement that most hunters just trust that the FWP knows what they are doing and buy the tags in good faith - especially with regards to special seasons like the shoulder seasons in Montana. I self regulate. Most people I talk to know fully well what's out there. However, people want to hunt so they may participate even if they don't directly need the meat. I really don't care as maybe they'll kill a few more wolves in the process


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[WV Mountaineer]

You could almost assuredly and, correctly guess one's political compass on threads that talk about National Monuments, BHA, and wolves, by reading their posts on each thread.

 

[mtmuley]

You could almost assuredly and, correctly guess one's political compass on threads that talk about National Monuments, BHA, and wolves, by reading their posts on each thread.

How so? mtmuley

 

[Netherman]

Not wolves but another predator management study in CO.

Colorado To Kill Some Mountain Lions, Bears To Boost Mule Deer Numbers : The Two-Way : NPR

Hopefully they are allowed to conduct this study. It looks like they were able to begin this past spring but are in a legal battle over the ability to continue.

When you are already getting what you want why allow science or management to continue? Other examples of closedmindedness include Midwest wolf and GYE grizzly bears.



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[westbranch]

I saw a wolf on the SE side of Rathdrum ID next to a housing development last Friday afternoon. The idea that they will avoid people is not realistic, they go where the food is. Even in this area where I am sure they have more lead thrown at them than other parts of the country they still come looking for the easy meal. I am from Northern MN in an area that has had wolves since the mid-1980s, so I am 100% sure it was a wolf. My wife also saw it and has seen several wolves in the wild.

I grew up on a dairy farm in Northern MN, we lost our first cow to a wolf in 1993. Wolf issues every 1-2 years after that, it would come in bursts as they moved from farm to farm over the surrounding area. Many wolves were taken by federal trappers on the farm since then. Even with 20+ years of pressure on the wolves, a few years ago we still had wolves chase deer through the farm yard between the house and the barn in the middle of the afternoon.

 

[WV Mountaineer]

How so? mtmuley

Not being hateful but, that's a question that answers itself.

 

[mtmuley]

Not being hateful but, that's a question that answers itself.

No, it does not. I want an explanation. You might be surprised. mtmuley