Dropping out of the WY moose race

Joined
Jan 12, 2017
Messages
812
Location
Idaho Falls,ID
I'm sure this can be disputed, but I feel there is a larger problem at hand when it comes to "trophy" species, i.e. sheep, goats, moose, and soon grizzlies. In the lower 48 I feel that there is simply not enough to satisfy the number of hunters that would like to harvest one. If a state like Wyoming or Idaho doubled the number of tags, it would increase opportunity and revenue for a few years but the population of these animals would be pushed into decline. The biggest factor in the outstanding trophy potential of certain units hinges on extremely limited harvest. Most of these species, excluding grizzlies, are facing more mortality every year from circumstances that are fairly new in the large scheme of things. Moose, in most areas of Wyoming, Idaho, and Montana, are facing huge predation losses to wolves. Bighorns are dying off needlessly due to mismanagement of domestic sheep causing bacterial pneumonia. Goats are suffering the same fate to a lesser degree.
I have had the opportunity to guide for all these species minus grizzlies, and enjoyed every second of it. I would eventually like to have most of these species adorn my living room walls, but I may not be allowed the chance to pay that taxidermy bill because I may never draw a tag. Frustrating? Yes. But I realize that not every person that wants a 10" billy or 180" looper can have one. There's quite simply not enough for everyone.
 

BuzzH

WKR
Joined
May 27, 2017
Messages
2,229
Location
Wyoming
The problem with the point systems is that they are unsustainable...too many applicants, not enough resource.

One thing that would help some is to make the high demand species once in a lifetime. I've drawn and shot both goat and moose in Montana, yet I still put in. I don't need another moose or goat tag there, but the rules say I can apply, and I will apply and hopefully draw again.

However, I don't think its right or fair that I may very well get the chance to hunt both of those species twice, when other people haven't had the chance to hunt them once in Montana.

Same with Wyoming, I drew a moose tag a few years back and when I'm over my 5 year waiting period, I'm applying again...because I can. Shouldn't be able to, but those are the current rules and that's what I'll do.

Honestly, with or without point schemes, most are going to have to be lucky even if the draw was entirely random. Just take a look at the number of applicants VS number of tags. The cold reality is that you're probably not going to draw, no matter what system is in play.

I've been applying for at least 6-8 states a year for over 20 years, and have applied for every available tag in Montana for 36 years. In that time I've drawn moose and goat in Montana, moose in Wyoming, musk ox in Alaska, desert sheep in Arizona, and oryx in New Mexico. So 6 tags for high demand species...some with points, some via random draw.

I also think at this point, its going to be tough sledding to stop or change the point systems in most states. Too many have too much invested to completely drop the point schemes.

I do agree that the point schemes disenfranchise youth and those new to the sport that may want to pursue sheep, moose, goat, etc.

But, I think the thing to do is to not dwell on what you CANT hunt, but what you can. Most states have a lot of opportunity for deer, elk, black bear, pronghorn, etc....and those are some very fun hunts. Take advantage of those and just go have a good time...apply for the long shot species and just feel lucky if you're able to draw someday.

I say hunt what you can, while you have the health, resources and time to do so...and make sure to share those experiences with your friends and family. Don't forget to have fun along the way and appreciate the hunts you get to do. Life is too short to worry about drawing, or not drawing, a moose, sheep, or goat tag...

I'm not going to stomp my feet, hold my breath, and throw my sucker in the dirt if I don't get to hunt everything I want to...its called life and we don't always get our way.
 

MtnOyster

WKR
Joined
May 2, 2017
Messages
388
Location
Kentucky
hunting is starting to turn into a joke financially so bad that it's stupid, too many people hunting because they think it's cool instead of wanting to be out there for what it really is...........................sad.
 
OP
I
Joined
May 11, 2014
Messages
99
Location
Kotzebue, AK
Weird. Go down to 38 in the snowies, there is no shortage

While this is true, the Snowies and the Bighorns are the only place that moose are thriving and they are a small % of Wyoming's moose. They also happen to be the only places in Wyoming where there are not tons of wolves. For now. And that will change.

The only places moose hold on indefinitely are in places where they have ample 3-4 foot deep water to escape wolves. Everywhere else, they go through cyclical periods of high moose numbers, followed by high wolf numbers, followed by low/no moose numbers and low/no wolf numbers. The Canadians have done the science on this. Wherever there are elk or high numbers of moose, wolves will follow and moose calves only survive in deep water where their mothers can stomp swimming wolves.

That rules out large areas in the lower 48.

EDIT: Oh, and a tag in the Snowies in the random pool is 1 in 600 odds. Good luck with that.
 
Last edited:

Ern

FNG
Joined
Aug 1, 2013
Messages
8
Well, this got me thinking. Right now I'm sitting on 13 points. Looking at the numbers WY posts, last year I had 12 points at this time with 2915 people with or ahead of me in points. Now it shows there's 3126 people with or ahead of me in points. That's a head scratcher. How did 211 people catch or pass me in the point system? It is pretty depressing. I might be dropping out too as it looks like I'd have a minimum of 10 more years of buying points.
 

Chesapeake

Lil-Rokslider
Joined
Apr 15, 2012
Messages
211
I didn't t read all the post.........

You could buy a grip of raffle tickets for the $150 points price and have some slight chance every year............. Same deal available in most or all states with moose. Raffle tags are cheaper, often have better odds, and you can spend as much or as little as you'd like.

I think preference points systems for OIL tags have priced themselves into obsolescence and Raffle and Auctions tags are the way these days.
 

wesfromky

WKR
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
843
Location
KY
Kentucky doesn't have a points system for elk, for what sounds like the reasons in this thread.


https://fw.ky.gov/Hunt/Documents/KYElkHuntDrawingFAQ.pdf
"Why doesn't Kentucky have a preference points system for the Elk Hunt Drawing?
Answer: A preference points system is not in the best interest of Kentucky elk hunt applicants. This is
because there are many more elk hunt applicants than elk permits in Kentucky. Some hunters have
recommended that the KDFWR use preference points, similar to some western states. However, some
western states with preference point systems offer more permits to nonresidents than Kentucky has total elk
permits. Consider the following illustration. If KDFWR used a preference point system, and 50,000 people
applied (a realistic number given past application rates), and 1,000 permits were available each year, it would
take 50 years for everyone to receive a permit! In the second year of drawing under a preference points
system, an applicant’s odds at drawing a permit would be equal to the other 49,000 people who earned a
preference point during the first year. In reality, odds under a preference point system would not even be as
good as described above because this illustration makes three unrealistic assumptions: 1) no additional
applicants ever enter the lottery, 2) the number of available elk permits never fluctuates, and 3) no one could
ever be drawn more than once. The current drawing system provides the benefit of affording each applicant
for a particular hunt type an equal chance of being drawn every year. It does not discriminate against or act
as a deterrent to new hunters, seniors, youths, or anyone else who enters the drawing from having an
opportunity to be drawn within a reasonable period of time. A preference point system would neither
guarantee that an individual would ever be drawn, nor would it necessarily improve anyone’s odds of being
drawn during any given year. Although the issues above stem from Kentucky’s relatively low elk permit
quota (800-1,000 permits in recent years), preference point systems have not always worked in the interest
of applicants in western states, either. Many western states have experienced “point creep” because an everincreasing
number of applicants enter their drawings, constantly pushing up the number of preference points
(and thus years) required before one could possibly receive a permit."
 

Trial153

WKR
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
8,187
Location
NY
states with preference points need to phase the system out. its a ponze scheme at this point. If that means increses in fees for tags so be it but substaining a system that doenst work is borderline crimal.
 

BuzzH

WKR
Joined
May 27, 2017
Messages
2,229
Location
Wyoming
states with preference points need to phase the system out. its a ponze scheme at this point. If that means increses in fees for tags so be it but substaining a system that doenst work is borderline crimal.

Isn't going to happen anytime soon...if ever.

Too many people in too deep...there was a time to fight point systems, that ship sailed a couple/three decades ago.
 

Trial153

WKR
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
8,187
Location
NY
Isn't going to happen anytime soon...if ever.

Too many people in too deep...there was a time to fight point systems, that ship sailed a couple/three decades ago.
maybe and maybe not. Look at AZ taking baby steps and adding to the random pool.

if they want to correct there are ways to mitgate it short term, albeit it will be painfull. but at least it will be corrcted.
 

dotman

WKR
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
Messages
8,201
Yeah I've stopped putting in for sheep, goat and moose and just bank the money I would have spent in apps for a future hunt in AK or CN. When you consider how much you spend in pts and the cost of the tags if drawn you might as well pay a guide.
 

Halfslam

Lil-Rokslider
Joined
Nov 30, 2017
Messages
121
Location
Eastern Oregon
Yeah I've stopped putting in for sheep, goat and moose and just bank the money I would have spent in apps for a future hunt in AK or CN. When you consider how much you spend in pts and the cost of the tags if drawn you might as well pay a guide.

Exactly....when I first started buying PP's in Wyoming they were 7 dollars for sheep and moose. When it was bumped to 75 and 100 bucks I stayed with it because of the points I had built up. Then wolves started eating moose meat and tag numbers declined. I think I had 11 moose points and 12 for sheep when I gave it up. I'd be no closer today that when I quit 4 or 5 years ago
 
OP
I
Joined
May 11, 2014
Messages
99
Location
Kotzebue, AK
The only answer is to convert the preference point systems to bonus point systems or change them back to lottery. Changing to bonus point systems will be less painful to the guys who've put in for a long time.

The thing is, states, especially Wyoming, have made a cash cow out of points. If you look at the total amount of NRs last year with points and multiply it by the dollar amount that the points cost, WY made 10 million dollars last year off of just points. That's ridiculous. The points have no real value - they're just the govt of WY charging you for a computer to count how many times you've put in.

Until enough people drop out, they'll keep doing it. I'm walking this year. Elk and PH PPs still have value in WY, but everything else has gotten ridiculous and I won't continue to feed a broken system.

Turn it into a bonus point system and I'll be right back in - but really, $150 a specie is not worth it WY. Not for those odds. Get real.
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2014
Messages
3,158
I'm droppi...wait...I was never in it. But I'd be out of there so fast it's not funny. I've never once played the points game in any state anywhere. That's just me, and everyone sees it their own way. I've never once felt any desire to get mixed up in apps, odds, points, lotteries and such. Nothing there for me except frustration and irritation. I spend my money today on today's hunts. I'll of course never hunt moose in Wyoming, but I hunt them every year in AK. I am long past the time in life where I can afford to wait.
 

KJH

WKR
Joined
May 10, 2016
Messages
547
While this is true, the Snowies and the Bighorns are the only place that moose are thriving and they are a small % of Wyoming's moose. They also happen to be the only places in Wyoming where there are not tons of wolves. For now. And that will change.

The only places moose hold on indefinitely are in places where they have ample 3-4 foot deep water to escape wolves. Everywhere else, they go through cyclical periods of high moose numbers, followed by high wolf numbers, followed by low/no moose numbers and low/no wolf numbers. The Canadians have done the science on this. Wherever there are elk or high numbers of moose, wolves will follow and moose calves only survive in deep water where their mothers can stomp swimming wolves.

That rules out large areas in the lower 48.

EDIT: Oh, and a tag in the Snowies in the random pool is 1 in 600 odds. Good luck with that.

I think you're on to something. I've seen more moose in the Snowy Range in the last two years than ever before. I've seen 4 so far this year and hardly been out (all bulls!). I've never seen a wolf there. Seems like more than a coincidence.
 

BuzzH

WKR
Joined
May 27, 2017
Messages
2,229
Location
Wyoming
maybe and maybe not. Look at AZ taking baby steps and adding to the random pool.

if they want to correct there are ways to mitgate it short term, albeit it will be painfull. but at least it will be corrcted.

Wyoming isn't Arizona...my guess is that the Arizona GF commission had the authority to change the tag splits...it will take legislation in Wyoming.

Good luck with that....
 

jmazz

Lil-Rokslider
Joined
Aug 14, 2017
Messages
160
Location
NY
I bought my first preference point as a resident for moose in Wyoming this past year. After doing more research I don't know if I'll continue buying them or not but $7 isn't a terrible investment for me as a resident. I definitely wouldn't pay the nonresident fee though.

Here are a couple pictures of a moose my brother and I saw while hunting the Snowy Range this fall.

iHFO6V0l.jpg


6dpQMeil.jpg
 
Joined
Sep 9, 2012
Messages
1,979
Location
BC
Drew NR tags for a Desert Bighorn in NV, Shiras Moose in WY, Bison in UT, plus a couple of AZ elk tags, UT mule deer tags and WY pronghorn tags. They were neat DIY hunts that I put a lot of effort into with the bow. As some have noted, this was mainly back in the '90s and early 2000s when tags were easier to come by. I am out of the NR draws today with no intention of getting back in with the possible exception of CO deer where I still have a few preference points if I apply this year, otherwise they expire. I do play the drawing game in BC today looking to get lucky on a bison tag, for an LEH Bighorn and Dall sheep (we can hunt Stones, Bighorns and California Bighorns every year without an LEH tag, but the LEH units can be very good) and another Roosevelt elk tag.

Good luck to all in the drawings!
 

KJH

WKR
Joined
May 10, 2016
Messages
547
I'm droppi...wait...I was never in it. But I'd be out of there so fast it's not funny. I've never once played the points game in any state anywhere. That's just me, and everyone sees it their own way. I've never once felt any desire to get mixed up in apps, odds, points, lotteries and such. Nothing there for me except frustration and irritation. I spend my money today on today's hunts. I'll of course never hunt moose in Wyoming, but I hunt them every year in AK. I am long past the time in life where I can afford to wait.

I wanted to say this exact thing, but didn't want to say that OTC AK moose tags were available every year... I can't stand the point systems.
 
Top