Non-resident big game tag drawing

LostArra

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After following the moose thread it appears that people are in agreement that preference point systems are flawed from the hunter's perspective (not Wyoming's perspective since it's a money maker).

So is a totally random lottery draw the preferred method or a bonus point system? Maybe someone smarter than I am could set up a poll. I'm interested in what folks think is a perfect method to allocate a limited number of tags to non-residents for big game species.
 

TexanSam

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Granted I've only drawn tags for new Mexico, I do like that draw as well as Arizona's draw.

The only problem I can see happening without some sort of point system in place is that even with 99 percent draw odds, you could technically get unlucky your whole life and never draw a tag. The way Arizona does it somewhat prevents that.

Certain places I am discouraged from putting in for (Colorado) simply because of the way their point system works, it is guaranteed I may not hunt things or places I want to hunt, and if I wasn't doing pretty well for my age, I probably wouldn't even bother to build preference points there.

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Personally I liked Colorado's system before this year. I say that from being on a fixed income perspective. I make enough money to live comfortably but not enough to simply throw my funds around and apply for everything every year. It was a true pref point system and it forced me (and probably the overwhelming general public) to make decisions about what species to accumulate points for and when to apply. It weeded people out, not necessarily the less fortunate (wealthy) but I didn't apply or build points for some select species because it was simply too much money to front. That won't be the case anymore.... I understand the cost to the state was high, and in that respect understand why they changed it but it certainly seemed to prevent a lot more point creep than what we'll see in the coming years.
 

NoWiser

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Totally random draw is the best method. A straight bonus point system (not squared) is a close second.
 

pods8 (Rugged Stitching)

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Personally I liked Colorado's system before this year. I say that from being on a fixed income perspective. I make enough money to live comfortably but not enough to simply throw my funds around and apply for everything every year. It was a true pref point system and it forced me (and probably the overwhelming general public) to make decisions about what species to accumulate points for and when to apply. It weeded people out, not necessarily the less fortunate (wealthy) but I didn't apply or build points for some select species because it was simply too much money to front. That won't be the case anymore.... I understand the cost to the state was high, and in that respect understand why they changed it but it certainly seemed to prevent a lot more point creep than what we'll see in the coming years.

I haven't looked at the new method but there were 2 methods before depending on the species. Elk/deer/antelope/bear were true preference points. Goats/moose/sheep were weighted preference points (IE putting in got you a random number which was divided by your weighted points and lowest number in the end wins. There is a statistical chance you could draw with low/no weighted points but its low odds and over time your odds get better).
 
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I haven't looked at the new method but there were 2 methods before depending on the species. Elk/deer/antelope/bear were true preference points. Goats/moose/sheep were weighted preference points (IE putting in got you a random number which was divided by your weighted points and lowest number in the end wins. There is a statistical chance you could draw with low/no weighted points but its low odds and over time your odds get better).

Yes... so I have points for elk, deer and pronghorn but left the rest out due to a combination of the funds it would tie up for 2 mos and simply lack of desire to either a) shoot a bear in fall or b) wait potentially 20+ years while fronting the cost to apply or accumulate weighted points for the "big three".

I don't totally mind random-draw so to speak... but like that only one state I apply in has it. I count it as my "wildcard" each year. If every state did random draw it would make it incredibly difficult to plan.
 

weaver

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I think a straight bonus point system or random draw is the only viable long term solution.

One system that I think would be interesting is if a state put all the tags for every species in one pot. You could apply for everything from sheep to antelope on one application. Draw would look at everyone's first choice before moving to second choice. I'd think it would have to improve the odds of getting a tag for your species of choice.

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I like Nevada’s system best. Everyone has a chance and the longer you stay in the better chance you have.
 

NoWiser

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I like Nevada’s system best. Everyone has a chance and the longer you stay in the better chance you have.

Nevada is a terrible system after a decade. New applicants end up with odds that decrease every year, even while they are building points.
 
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Isn't this a squared points state?

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Yes, and I think it’s a good system.

Also, every states system is a terrible system. Just ask the guys at the bottom or the guys at the top that still cannot draw. They all suck for someone.
 
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5MilesBack

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The problem with some of these draws especially for NR's is that you would NEVER draw if it was straight points. Colorado doesn't give out enough NR moose tags to give anyone a decent chance either way. Even for residents it's a slim chance every year......but it's still a chance. Whereas if it was straight points.........even sitting on the 3 and 12 I have, I'd still be way behind the draw pool. But the wait goes on........and somebody draws every year, and others collect another weighted point. I've watched several guys draw the sheep tag I want in the last few years with less than 1/4 of the weighted points I have. So who knows.

They say that the NR NM elk draw is 6%, but I drew last year on a third choice tag. Luck? Who knows.
 

realunlucky

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So like most other states then?
Correct.

The problem is basically people want to be rewarded for thier long term commitment to the game but in order for the system to survive it needs to attract new members to the game. Sounds alot like a pyramid scheme.

That's why all states are creating some type of hybrid system. Some states like Utah offer a "real" chance to draw by putting half tags in a straight draw and half for highest point holders. Other states have a chance that is almost mathematically impossible but hey that's still a chance right?

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NoWiser

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So like most other states then?

Not really. A state like Nevada skews the odds so much toward the high point holders that it isn't worth getting started out in for new applicants. You may as well play the lottery and buy a hunt when you win. Granted, it's better than a straight preference point system like Colorado.

Nevada would get my money every single year for applications for all species if they had a random draw or regular bonus point system. I'm not going to buy into a system that discriminates so badly because of my age, though.
 

bigdesert10

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Points systems hinder hunter recruitment and skew management objectives toward managing for trophies.
 
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I think point systems have their benefits when the demand doesn't greatly exceed the supply. This allows hunters to plan for an out-of-state hunt with greater game populations, trophy quality, etc. every few years. I am still able to improve my skills and go on general and antlerless hunts every year, but the point system guarantees me a quality antelope, elk, or deer tag in Wyoming, Colorado, or Utah basically every year.

On the other hand, I think the preference point system is a broken system for extremely high-demand hunts. I like the way that Utah limits residents and Idaho limits all applicants to only apply for select species. As well as making the tags once-in-a-lifetime. I think we are doing a great disservice to new hunters with these systems.
 

realunlucky

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I think point systems have their benefits when the demand doesn't greatly exceed the supply. This allows hunters to plan for an out-of-state hunt with greater game populations, trophy quality, etc. every few years. I am still able to improve my skills and go on general and antlerless hunts every year, but the point system guarantees me a quality antelope, elk, or deer tag in Wyoming, Colorado, or Utah basically every year.

On the other hand, I think the preference point system is a broken system for extremely high-demand hunts. I like the way that Utah limits residents and Idaho limits all applicants to only apply for select species. As well as making the tags once-in-a-lifetime. I think we are doing a great disservice to new hunters with these systems.
The problem is demand always exceeds supply and as more people enter the game demand on every tag goes up not just the best tags.
Look at Wyoming general tags and the point creep that's developed in just the span of 12 years and that's for a general tag.

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Trial153

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There has to be a way to flush points. A charge back or a buy back while states move to a greater percentage of random tags . There are solutions however the states don’t what to give up the revenues they are receiving . The issue is more ethical in my mind. At this point the states are selling a product that can’t deliver on. When that happens a assessment needs to be taken.
 
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