Better "stock" up boys

[Mike7]

It is almost unbelievable to me, how people throw all logic right out the door on this topic. I don't know for sure why this is, but I can only attribute it to public school and media indoctrination.? It has not always been this way. And yes, sadly enough, I am one of the people who attended a school with rifles clearly present hanging in the rear window of vehicles in the school parking lot during hunting season.

I get that some people believe that everything can be a utopia if everyone just submits to a benevolent government and just follows the rules as laid out by their government. And despite human nature and history completely debunking this myth, I do not hold it against these people for believing in this myth and wanting utopia as they see it.

What I can't in any way condone is politicians using children as political pawns and putting these children's safety in danger every day. I have seen time and time again at the county and state level in my former state of Washington, laws brought up not associated with any tragedy which would help protect our schools, just instead go by the wayside due to progressive politicians and feigned emotion...and this is long before the ignorance along with some real emotion that is seen around the time of a tragedy. There are plenty of problems in society (and plenty of misinformation on mental illness and medication for one above) that could definitely be improved, but there will always be problems in society. Always. Should these problems be addressed? Yes. Will that get rid of the need for ever having to defend ourselves from deranged people? Never!

 

[Mike7]

So, I would think that most logical nonpoliticians would agree that some form of school defense plan is appropriate...I hope. Because throwing our kids in a "gun free" zone without any restrictions on criminals bringing in any kind of weapon to the school is well, insane. There is not a public school that my kids have ever been to that is much, much less secure than your average nursing home I have been to, and there is not a single school that I could not easily bring in whatever weapon I wanted into the school, if I was a criminal, both during and after school hours at sporting events. So, it would be incredibly easy to shoot up the entire school with zero resistance for at least 10 minutes, unless a concealed carry parent was able to go out to their car and retrieve their lawfully owned weapon within a few minutes and illegally bring that into the school to confront the shooter/deranged person. So, right now we as parents are left with the "pray it is not my school defense". Wow, that is a great plan. And many politicians are completely fine with this, as long as they can maybe restrict more gun rights of law abiding citizens.

For those of you above not favoring a layered defense when it comes to schools...just try on your own for a moment to come up with all of the different ways that you could defeat your own single layer defense plan. And then consider the cost of your plan, and the likelihood that it would be funded tomorrow, in 10 years, or ever for that matter? Despite that I am sure that I could come up with many ways to defeat your one layer of defense, I would still support it...but along with other measures of course.

 

[Mike7]

I would submit to you naysayers, that a willing armed teacher is probably one of the cheapest and best last defense layers in these situations. They wouldn't have to be armed all of the time or any of the time for that matter to be effective, but just have access to a weapon (not advertised, but perhaps in a small hidden wall safe somewhere in the classroom or in classroom closet). They can be trained as easily as anyone else.

Because there is a certain percentage of people who will freeze in some tense situations, that is even more reason to have more teachers trained and with access to a weapon. If you read battle accounts, often the sloppiest, least "squared away", worst garrison Marine or Soldier is one of the best at reacting in the heat of battle and saves lives. Furthermore, teachers will be defending themselves and their students, so they have skin in the game. Teachers are right with the kids at the start of any attack and so many will have warning and also be in the perfect defensive position. They are everywhere in the school like an Air Marshall blending into the crowd, and so can't be sought out and then singled out by a gunman like a resource officer before the onset of the attack. They are in spots allowing them to take up a defensive positions behind cover in classrooms or around hallway corners, and an advancing gunman will have no idea where the threat might be coming from (and last I knew, a 9mm bullet from a teacher will kill you just as dead as a .223 bullet from a punk). And teachers and coaches are often, along with parents, the only people around who could potentially be armed or carrying concealed when the entire campus is open after school for sporting events when people are coming and going on campus at will, and when large confined crowds exist.

Wake up America!

 

[FlyGuy]

This has been a very interesting discussion. Lots of good points made, and not too much name calling even though it is an emotionally charged topic. It's made me really think through where I stand on things. I mean actively think about it, not just resort to the way I was raised to think.

I agree with Kevin that making the schools safer, akin to making airports/airplanes safer, is a good point. The downside is that it is going to cost a shit-ton of money to do it, and once it is done they will just find a softer target. They'll bring their AR to the Friday Night Football Game instead. Or the Mall. Or what ever parking lot the kids hang out in on Friday night. So, I don't think those changes will keep those kids from getting shot, it will just keep them from getting shot at school. But it's something that can't really hurt either and it's going to make a lot if people feel better so it is something that we should probably do.

At the end of the day, these school shooters are no different than terrorists. When you think of it like That, it changes things a little bit, at least it does for me. You simply can not put in enough defenses to stop a determined terrorist from attacking. No matter what you do, they will still find a way to get an effective weapon into an unprotected space that allows them to inflict a large number of casualties. But think back to any of the thwarted terrorists attacks you've heard of in the last 5 years. They didn't stop them through a confrontation/gun fight at the site of their intended target. They stopped them before they ever attacked. They got a tip And they ran it down And they caught the terrorists in their apartment with bomb making supplies or whatever. But that is what was missed by the FBI in Florida. They for a tip, but they didn't take it seriously enough. I bet they learn from it next time though. Remember how we all looked back at the 911 attackers and how they "should" have been stopped before they got to the planes? But we learned from that too. Made changes.

The only way that we are going to prevent these things from happening is to Treat it like terrorism. School Kids, teachers, coaches, parents now need change how they look at things. Don't be so casually dismissive. Be watchful of behaviors that are disturbing. Report those things. The FBI needs to staff up and troll through social media looking into each post that is disturbing. They need to actively follow up on reports they receive, just like they would if it would have been a tip about some Isis clown that was going to be shooting up a school. This won't catch 100% of them, nothing really will, But it think that targeting these threats before they act is the only real solution that we have.


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[Ta406]

This is sickening. Watching the Sheriff grandstanding on CNN put a bad taste in my mouth. Seems his deputies followed the leader. More will come out here but I bet you wont see it in the Lamestream Media.

"The resentment among Coral Springs officials toward Broward County officials about what they perceived to be a dereliction of duty may have reached a boiling point at a vigil the night of February 15, where, in front of dozens of others, Coral Springs City Manager Mike Goodrum confronted Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel."

Surprisingly, I just saw this covered on CNN. I was shocked.

 

[Sverimerica]

.....

 

[Sverimerica]

As usual just as sticking your heads in the sand.......ignoring or refusing to accept logic won't solve the problems. And yes, I know. All this logic stuff is offensive to the left.

Do you ever wonder why you never see all the stories of regular armed citizens taking down criminals on CNN, MSNBC, and the like? Think about it for a minute, or an hour. And there are plenty of these encounters out there.

So I take it you're a logician? And no, I am not "the left"

Skickat från min G8142 via Tapatalk

 

[sndmn11]

It is possible to prevent guns from making it inside a school. Plenty of government-funded entities are successful at keeping unwanted guns (and mass killers) from accessing venues such as secure areas of airports, aircraft, courthouses, capitals, and other secured sites. with a gun.

Not one of those places listed has zero firearms inside....

 

[timekiller13]

There is an article on CNN.com about Texas school districts that have been allowing teachers to carry for years. Students interviewed said they felt very safe knowing their teachers had the means to deal with a threat.

 

[5MilesBack]

I am very pro gun, put 100 armed guards in every school, I am not in favor of armed teachers. Check mate

Ya, except you're playing checkers. How does your check-mate plan pay for those armed guards? They can hardly afford to pay the teachers the way they mismanage money. I'll see your check-mate and raise you 1000 armed guards.

 

[Kevin Dill]

Not one of those places listed has zero firearms inside....

And I did not indicate any of those listed venues "has zero firearms inside". I spoke specifically to (quoting myself) "keeping unwanted guns (and mass killers) from accessing venues...."

I'm not against having defensive arms inside a school, or plane, or courthouse. My specific objection is the ideology of making armed teachers the primary defense against a gunman inside our schools. They should be the LAST line of defense. I will 100% guarantee you that an overwhelming majority of children and their parents and the teachers at Parkland would prefer to see a strategy implemented which prevents unauthorized weapons and people into their school.

The statements about simply making or calling a school a "gun-free zone" and hoping it keeps guns out are ludicrous to the point of being disingenuous. That would work as reliably as a No Hunting sign would at preventing poaching. There has to be some of the same type procedures implemented as used at any secure facility. Those would need to be adapted to the unique setting of a school. The school itself would definitely need physical changes to impede unauthorized access. I hear the concerns about costs of doing that. If it's not done, the alternative is going to be more mass murderers getting to our kids....and then we'll have dead kids even if an armed teacher can eventually respond and kill the gunman.

Mike7 make several good points above about layered defense systems. No single method is going to be absolutely effective. Criminals are endlessly clever and determined to accomplish their goals. We must have a strategic system in place to: 1) Disqualify certain high-risk individuals from buying or legally owning a firearm; 2) Prevent (to the max extent) a gunman from getting to children; 3) A set of strategies for dealing with a gunman who somehow does get both himself and a gun into a school.

Criminals love soft targets. When we make it hard for them to get a gun....or get a gun and themselves into a school...and then shoot their faces off if they do get in...that's a solution. Thinking a shoot-back strategy by teachers is THE best way to go is idealistic thinking. Maybe the best way to determine how that would go over would be to survey teachers in large numbers and let them tell us what they think is the best strategy and whether they are willing to get and maintain the training required to handle a firearm in a combat situation.

 

[Desk Jockey]

BlackRock puts gunmakers on notice after Florida school shooting | Reuters

 

[5MilesBack]

BlackRock puts gunmakers on notice after Florida school shooting | Reuters

And that's the usual misguided response......a nutjob uses a tool to kill people, that 99%+ folks can handle responsibly.......so go after the manufacturer of said tool to see what they are going to do about it. SMH. Maybe they can put a disclaimer on the box that states that these weapons are only to be used by "responsible people". There, they've taken care of their responsibility, now it's 100% on the individuals.

And obviously all the emotional folks that want Blackrock and pension funds to sell all gun company's stocks have no idea how index funds work. I find it ironic that here we are trying to figure out how to identify and control nutjobs, and yet every nutjob in the country yells for gun control. LOL.

 

[5MilesBack]

I'm not against having defensive arms inside a school, or plane, or courthouse. My specific objection is the ideology of making armed teachers the primary defense against a gunman inside our schools.

They don't have to be the primary defense, but when some nutjob gets in intent on doing damage.....they may be the ONLY defense.

 

[BroodBuster]

And that's the usual misguided response......a nutjob uses a tool to kill people, that 99%+ folks can handle responsibly.......so go after the manufacturer.....

I ran the math using numbers provided in a recent Seattle Times article. 99.99997% of guns possessed in the US are never used in a mass shooting.

 

[colersu22]

One Washington school district already has staff armed with guns | KIRO-TV

I saw this article yesterday about a school district in Wa that the administrators are packing and have been since 2014

 

[Kevin Dill]

They don't have to be the primary defense, but when some nutjob gets in intent on doing damage.....they may the ONLY defense.

Essentially correct, except the armed teacher would be the FINAL defense.

 

[5MilesBack]

Essentially correct, except the armed teacher would be the FINAL defense.

And they may be the first, only, and/or "hopefully" the final defense after said suspect enters the school. Pretty much like any and every other situation out in society outside of school.

Normal every day citizens are the ones that are first on the scene of most every crime.

 

[sndmn11]

And I did not indicate any of those listed venues "has zero firearms inside". I spoke specifically to (quoting myself) "keeping unwanted guns (and mass killers) from accessing venues...."

You are correct, I misread.

It is important to note that those places are kept that way by wanted guns.

 

[Mike7]

Sometimes the final defense is the most assured. Just like in football, it is easiest to penetrate the defense at mid field, when the defense can be spread out, and the offense is free to run whatever play it wants. You still play defense at mid field, but you can't stop nearly everything unless you spend a whole lot of money and prepare for a lot more inconvenience (think courthouses).

And there is always going to be law enforcement failures, school politics/idiot school administrators who put school stats & ideology above student safety, and mentally ill people, no matter how much you try to minimize these things
...but still, one vetted, trained, motivated football coach who loved his students and players & who had access to weapon could have potentially ended this whole tragedy in a definitive way, and which would cost nobody anything.