Hunt Backcountry Podcast 121

[tmwtrfwler]

underwood 10mm ammo is what I have here in the east and what i'll take out west in October. nothing loaded by federal, etc. they dumb theirs down.

 

[PNWTO]

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?16503-HK-USP-45-field-pistol

This is good thread by an AK pilot and outdoorsman concerning all the pistols he has used and why he has settled on .45 Super out of a reliable platform. I am a fan of the 10mm but one does need to scrutinize the loads as there does exist a reliability envelope that is tighter than most think.

With a bullet like the Lehigh Penetrator I think even the 9mm comes into its own as a "bear country" chambering.

 

[GLB]

So, do you always walk around in the guard stance? Did you try the test with 1.5 seconds instead of 2.5? A grizz can cover that ground in 1.5 seconds. Good info, but most bear encounters occur in such a way that it takes your brain longer than that to realize you're in trouble.

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Was that a serious question?? No I do not walk around in a fighting stance. We had to set a test standard to even do a comparison. Drawing the large frame revolvers from the holster and delivering hits would not even compare to the Glock 20. We both can do 2 hits from the holster in less than 1.5 seconds with the Glock but not the revolvers. Also I live in bear country. I have large brown Bears crossing my yard to the salmon streams all summer long and have been charged. Both times I had my gun out before they turned and I needed to shoot. They are extremely fast.

 

[sneaky]

Was that a serious question?? No I do not walk around in a fighting stance. We had to set a test standard to even do a comparison. Drawing the large frame revolvers from the holster and delivering hits would not even compare to the Glock 20. We both can do 2 hits from the holster in less than 1.5 seconds with the Glock but not the revolvers. Also I live in bear country. I have large brown Bears crossing my yard to the salmon streams all summer long and have been charged. Both times I had my gun out before they turned and I needed to shoot. They are extremely fast.

My point was you should do a real world test. Everything drawn from a chest rig, then from a belt rig. Get a test group of average shooters, not trained shooters. Test, then average the results. From the guard by two competent shooters has no bearing on what Joe Schmuckatelli is going to do in that situation.

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[GLB]

I think the Glock is a good choice, but people have to understand that most 10 mm ammo is not fit for bear protection. It’s almost a reload only option to get heavy hard cast bullets loaded to top end pressures. And these type of loads should be used in the test, because it will effect your follow up speed. It should come as no surprise that the Glock works best for you and your buddy since you’re both officers that probably do most of your shooting with Glocks. I’m sure if we had a cowboy action quick draw artist repeat the test, we might get different results.

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Yep as stated in my post, Full power loads were used in all guns. The 10mm is a handload with a hard 200 grn bullet at 1150 fps. I have well over 1000 rounds with this load in my G20. Its reliable and accurate. We pushed it to 1205 fps but reliability was not there.

 

[GLB]

My point was you should do a real world test. Everything drawn from a chest rig, then from a belt rig. Get a test group of average shooters, not trained shooters. Test, then average the results. From the guard by two competent shooters has no bearing on what Joe Schmuckatelli is going to do in that situation.

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We did the test for us not to be the end all answer for everybody else but informational still. Individuals need to make the best decision for themselves. The handgun is the hardest firearm to master. We see people come to Alaska with the largest and shortest handgun they can buy, think 2.5" S&W 500 or something similar and can't hit a thing with it, yet claim it's their bear protection. We both live on the range for work and off time and we see some disturbing stuff!. Most would be better off dragging a short barreled 12 ga shotgun with slugs which is better than any handgun but less convenient.

 

[GLB]

I wanted to add that I hunt a lot with the longbow and carrying a shotgun/rifle is cumbersome to say the least. That test convinced me that the G20 was best for me when I'm bowhunting in bear country.

 

[7mmremmag]

I wanted to add that I hunt a lot with the longbow and carrying a shotgun/rifle is cumbersome to say the least. That test convinced me that the G20 was best for me when I'm bowhunting in bear country.

There's a lot to be said for that last sentence. The best bear gun is the one you are proficient and comfortable with. There isn't a perfect answer that will work for everyone.

 

[sneaky]

I wanted to add that I hunt a lot with the longbow and carrying a shotgun/rifle is cumbersome to say the least. That test convinced me that the G20 was best for me when I'm bowhunting in bear country.

What longbow are you using? I hunt with a recurve but have thought about adding a longbow to the quiver

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[GLB]

What longbow are you using? I hunt with a recurve but have thought about adding a longbow to the quiver

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I have several but use the one Neil Russel built many years ago the most. I have a Robertson being built now and should be done soon.

 

[skaldugwas]

Just listened to it. Good on that guy for figuring out how to get people to give him money, I wish I was that resourseful. I like the idea of a live bear but after that I had to pull over because I kept involuntarily rolling my eyes.
Sounds like he has killed a lot of 2x4’s in his day but a stud doesn’t react the same way a big bear would - having never defended myself from a bear OR a 2x4 attack i’m just speculating.
I wonder how many grizzly guides would recommend a 9mm with fmj’s? You could theoretically kill a bear with a field tipped arrow too if you stuck him right.

 

[thinhorn_AK]

I carry a 10mm all over the place. Underwood 220g or hsm 200g is what I put in it. I keep it in a kenai chest rig, awesome set up.

 

[Whaledriver]

I am too a big 10mm fan. I like the Buffalo Bore hard cast. Switched to a 10mm for shootability. No way in hell I am putting rounds on target with a hogleg, 44, 454, 500. Don't get me wrong it could become a one shot stop in those calibers. I just cant shoot them. I feel 3 or 4 realistic hits from a good volley of 10 to 15 rounds will hopefully get me out of a bad situation. I am realistic though and realize if I am shooting my pistol at a charging grizz many things have went wrong. Prevention of bad situations go a long way. As they say it is best to file those front sights when shooting at a bear....easier on ya when he shoves it up your ......

 

[GLB]

I want to add that we did the same charging target drill I mentioned above with Ar15s. Why because we both can find ourselfs with a problem bear carrying the rifle. My parter that help me with this test has used his duty rifle to kill a problem black bear in town. It was one shot in the head. Using the Ar15 on the drill we both were averaging 7 to 8 very accurate hit on the charging target. Duty load is the 64 grain gold dot that is a very good bonded bullet. For my personal rifle I load the Barns 70 TSX bullet.

 

[Matt W.]

An Anchorage PD officer killed a brown bear in my neighborhood a few years back. It had killed a moose calf and drug it near where kids lived and played. I was surprised that he used an AR. Should have known you guys train for such instances, especially in AK.

 

[treillw]

Haven't listened to the Podcast yet but will soon. The subject of bear defense with a handgun comes up all the time and highly debated. About 2 years ago myself and a friend, both of us are Firearms Instructors for our departments and active competition shooters for 3 gun and precision/long range conducted a test. We used a charging target that gives you 2.5 seconds to react before it reaches you at 7 yards.
The handguns used by us were Glock 20 with full power 10mm loads, 44 mag revolvers, 454 casull revolver. The test was done from guard (weapon out of the holster and in a fighting stance)

We were looking for the best hit probability on a moving/ Charging target with enough gun/bullet/load that could penetrate the skull of a bear. Previous penetration test has shown that the above handguns/load combinations will penetrate a bears skull both black bear and brown bear.

The end results were the Glock 20 10mm had the highest hit probability hands down with and average of 4 accurate hits in the head size target in 2.5 seconds. That compared to two hits with the 44 mag and 1 hit with the 454. Accuracy was marginal at best with the 44 and 454. The Glock 20 we kept our hits in a 4" group centered on the 9" head target and with the revolvers we used all of the 9" to count as a hit.

So for me if I'm only going to carry a handgun in bear country it's the Glock 20 10mm. The shotgun with slugs or rifle is always a better choice.

How did you go about rigging up the target to come at you for your tests? My buddy and I went out to a hill and tied a piece of rope between two trees as tight as possible. We then tied a milk jug onto a pulley attached to the main rope. Rig up some haphazard stick/rope release mechanism and you have yourself a pretty fun way to practice.

 

[S.Clancy]

They also mentioned in the podcast that there were numerous reports of bears getting sprayed, leaving, then coming back PISSED. What do you do when that happens?

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Overall, I think the Hunt Backcountry podcast is awesome, however, I was very 'meh' on this episode. A lot of, at best, anecdotal information about bear behavior. In the actual data we have for bear spray, it's unlikely to have a bear come in a second time. Further, for most people, it's far more effective than a gun, pistol, rifle or bazooka. I argued with an alaskan hunting guide over that exact point; it's one thing to be following a wounded bear with a .375 H&H and another thing to effectively kill one with a pistol on a surprise charge. One good thing from that episode is the focus on being mentally prepared for an encounter. Most people don't think it will ever happen. Just follow Jack Reacher's advice, hope for the best, plan for the worst.

 

[Huntindog45]

Here is some summarized data on bear encounters where firearms were involved. Take it for what it is and draw your own conclusions, it's not like there is a large sample size.

GUN WATCH: Defense Against Bears with Pistols: 97% Success rate, 37 incidents by Caliber

funny they interviewed or quoted interviews all the people who survived because of a gun but did not interview any of the people who tried to use a gun and it didnt work..... Oh yah i guess they were not available. Todd used a spray rather than a gun....AND SURVIVED.

 

[sneaky]

Overall, I think the Hunt Backcountry podcast is awesome, however, I was very 'meh' on this episode. A lot of, at best, anecdotal information about bear behavior. In the actual data we have for bear spray, it's unlikely to have a bear come in a second time. Further, for most people, it's far more effective than a gun, pistol, rifle or bazooka. I argued with an alaskan hunting guide over that exact point; it's one thing to be following a wounded bear with a .375 H&H and another thing to effectively kill one with a pistol on a surprise charge. One good thing from that episode is the focus on being mentally prepared for an encounter. Most people don't think it will ever happen. Just follow Jack Reacher's advice, hope for the best, plan for the worst.

Todd Orr had the bear he sprayed attack a second time, although that was just bad luck on his part sounds like.

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[sneaky]

The only reason he didn't shoot it during the SECOND attack was because the bear had knocked the pistol away from him. He most certainly would have shot that bear on the second attack if he could have reached his pistol. Bear spray shortened the first attack, but did nothing for the second.

funny they interviewed or quoted interviews all the people who survived because of a gun but did not interview any of the people who tried to use a gun and it didnt work..... Oh yah i guess they were not available. Todd used a spray rather than a gun....AND SURVIVED.

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