Hunt Backcountry Podcast 121

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I just got done listening to this podcast about grizzly bear safety. It was an interesting discussion with some decent points, but some of the advice seemed sketchy to me. Especially when it came to guns. Maybe I misunderstood, but it seemed like they were leaning towards recommending small caliber, high speed, high capacity guns as grizzly defense. This goes against most of what I’ve heard, but I would be what they were calling an “internet ninja”.


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Wildlifer

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I Listened to it as well. Ultimately they recommend the 10mm as ideal. I think the point was that the larger auto calibers are lack the penetration needed to get to the vitals. I have not tested it but it made sense. I would rather have a 9mm that made 2 holes and went though vitals than a .45 that maybe just barely made it into the vitals. The revolver ammo is another story since most of caliber have sufficient case length to achieve the higher velocity needed for large caliber penetration. But heck at this point I guess I'm a ninja until I test it.
 

sneaky

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A 9mm with two holes, over a 45? Let me know how that works out. I've got the podcast in my que, I'll have to check it out. I'm thinking your hunting partner better carry a big revolver to KILL the bear after you've pissed it off shooting it with a 9mm. Everyone i think wrongly assumes that you'll have time to dump 15 rounds of accurate fire into a bear. Every account I've read, and the couple of bear attack survivors I've met have said the same thing, either they never knew what hit them, or they had a chance for one shot. One shot means one BIG shot to me.

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JohnnyB

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There was an excellent post a few days ago by treillw (hope I got that right) under firearms titled Bear Pistols. The article presented some statistical evidence that cut through some of the dogma around the issue.

Not sure how to link to it but it is worth a read.
 

amp713

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Never messed with Grizzlies, and I only pack a 9mm for two legged creatures because those are the most worrisome animals to me.

But when I head to grizzly country with my bow my 357 will probably be my side arm if I take one... more than likely I'll just take spray.
 

sneaky

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I'm taking an AT4 if i only get one shot

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This subject always intrigues me, even though I know it’s not a real concern. It’s crazy the variety of advice we get from so called experts. We get anti gun, animal rights people giving us “facts” on how much more effective spray is than guns. We get well intended folks like those on the podcast posing as experts and talking derogatory towards “internet ninjas” when that may be exactly what they are. In reality all but a few us have exactly the same experience warding off grizzly attacks (none). Maybe I’ll do a test of bear calibers (10 mm and up) on meat and bone and measure wound channels and penetration. Penetration in wood ,like they were talking, seems like the wrong way of testing effectiveness. The only way I would take spray or flares seriously if someone did real tests on their reliability, length of time they can be used for, and a holster system that was high quality and effective. You’d have to practice endlessly drawing and firing your spray or flare like we do with guns, if you expect to perform under stress. Also I’d have to do a lot research on the safety of flares and spray before I carried them. I can only imagine if a flare let loose in your pack as you were hiking, or if you fired it up because you heard something outside your tent and were instantly blinded by it. I wouldn’t even want to think about a bear attacking you with a flare in your hand and where it might end up. Spraying bear spray into the wind, or just spraying it too soon and being out by the time the bear got to you.



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sneaky

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This subject always intrigues me, even though I know it’s not a real concern. It’s crazy the variety of advice we get from so called experts. We get anti gun, animal rights people giving us “facts” on how much more effective spray is than guns. We get well intended folks like those on the podcast posing as experts and talking derogatory towards “internet ninjas” when that may be exactly what they are. In reality all but a few us have exactly the same experience warding off grizzly attacks (none). Maybe I’ll do a test of bear calibers (10 mm and up) on meat and bone and measure wound channels and penetration. Penetration in wood ,like they were talking, seems like the wrong way of testing effectiveness. The only way I would take spray or flares seriously if someone did real tests on their reliability, length of time they can be used for, and a holster system that was high quality and effective. You’d have to practice endlessly drawing and firing your spray or flare like we do with guns, if you expect to perform under stress. Also I’d have to do a lot research on the safety of flares and spray before I carried them. I can only imagine if a flare let loose in your pack as you were hiking, or if you fired it up because you heard something outside your tent and were instantly blinded by it. I wouldn’t even want to think about a bear attacking you with a flare in your hand and where it might end up. Spraying bear spray into the wind, or just spraying it too soon and being out by the time the bear got to you.



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All good points, but you forgot this. Train to where you are faster than your hunting partner. I know a guy who carries a 25 auto. We laughed and told him he couldn't kill a bear with it, he said he knew that, the gun was to shoot one of us in the kneecap so he could make his break for it. Still not sure if he was kidding or not.

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Ever shoot a charging bear with a handgun? We shot one in the summer of '16 with a 10mm and a 9mm. After 16 shots (confirmed hits) he finally gave up the ghost.

I carry a 10mm, for peace of mind, knowing full well that it likely won't stop a grizzly even on my best day. A charging grizzly bear is fast, very very fast. Had that happen once too, but I had a .375 pointed at her skull, she finally retreated at about 6 feet.

Good luck preparing for such an event, my advice would be to focus more on keeping aware of your surroundings while in grizzly country than worrying about what you are going to do when/if you get in close on one by accident. It's nice to have a plan, but I can all but guarantee that when it happens, it won't be anything like how you planned.

It's worth mentioning that lighting up a flare in the mountain west is a great idea, I bet Smoky would be thrilled about that approach.

Full disclosure, I didn't listen to the podcast, I can't stand the host's monotone voice, ha...
 

Wildlifer

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A 9mm with two holes, over a 45? Let me know how that works out. I've got the podcast in my que, I'll have to check it out. I'm thinking your hunting partner better carry a big revolver to KILL the bear after you've pissed it off shooting it with a 9mm. Everyone i think wrongly assumes that you'll have time to dump 15 rounds of accurate fire into a bear. Every account I've read, and the couple of bear attack survivors I've met have said the same thing, either they never knew what hit them, or they had a chance for one shot. One shot means one BIG shot to me.

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Just trying to make sense of what the guy was talking about. My point was not about multiple shots but the penetration of a single shot, entry and exit. The guy on the podcast makes some interesting claims and tells the story of his student using a 9mm. Personally I think every attack is different just like every bear is. In one case it may only take spray and the next anything short of a 50bmg wasn't going to stop it.
 

Matt W.

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Here is some summarized data on bear encounters where firearms were involved. Take it for what it is and draw your own conclusions, it's not like there is a large sample size.

GUN WATCH: Defense Against Bears with Pistols: 97% Success rate, 37 incidents by Caliber
If you are concerned about bears this is a must read for many reasons, the first being the extensive dive into how each attack happened. Great job by this blogger putting all this stuff in one spot. Well worth your time.... IMHO
 

amp713

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This subject always intrigues me, even though I know it’s not a real concern. It’s crazy the variety of advice we get from so called experts. We get anti gun, animal rights people giving us “facts” on how much more effective spray is than guns. We get well intended folks like those on the podcast posing as experts and talking derogatory towards “internet ninjas” when that may be exactly what they are. In reality all but a few us have exactly the same experience warding off grizzly attacks (none). Maybe I’ll do a test of bear calibers (10 mm and up) on meat and bone and measure wound channels and penetration. Penetration in wood ,like they were talking, seems like the wrong way of testing effectiveness. The only way I would take spray or flares seriously if someone did real tests on their reliability, length of time they can be used for, and a holster system that was high quality and effective. You’d have to practice endlessly drawing and firing your spray or flare like we do with guns, if you expect to perform under stress. Also I’d have to do a lot research on the safety of flares and spray before I carried them. I can only imagine if a flare let loose in your pack as you were hiking, or if you fired it up because you heard something outside your tent and were instantly blinded by it. I wouldn’t even want to think about a bear attacking you with a flare in your hand and where it might end up. Spraying bear spray into the wind, or just spraying it too soon and being out by the time the bear got to you.



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Coming from the archery side, I'd assume over half of the people bow hunting dont even put in the proper practice before the season for an event they hope to be given the chance at.

Being able to quick draw in a situation of that high of stress and place a shot requires far more practice than shooting a bow accurately.

Personally I think most people would do better with a spray, after all there is the saying spray and pray for a reason.

Most attacks happened either before someone could react or with very little time to react. Sounds like a good time to unleash a spray. Plus let's be honest if you can get that spray out and start spraying even as you get hit you may get the bear to leave you alone and even if you take some spray you can probably recover. Gun shot to your abdomen because the bear hit you as you tried to draw from a chest holster.... not as easy...


Again.... just my inexperienced opinion
 

3forks

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Todd Orr is the guy who got mauled twice in the same day by the same bear and he recently did a podcast with Randy Newberg and discussed the event.

Todd hunts elk with a .44 mag pistol and is an capable hunter and outdoorsman. For what it's worth, Todd said after the attack he'd consider carrying a 10mm in a chest rig.

However, Todd also said he believes bear spray is the best option. I know this discussion is more about 9mm vs larger calibers but here's a link to a blog entry Todd wrote about pistols vs bear spray.

http://www.thetoddorr.com/2016/10/18/question-why-didnt-bear-spray-work/

Question: Why didn’t bear spray work?

I noticed numerous comments out there this last couple weeks about the use of bear spray and it’s effectiveness. I am certainly no expert on the matter but would like to give my opinion as it relates to this incident and my past experience.

First and foremost, I am a strong advocate of bear spray! Statistics from recorded bear attacks show that bear spray is more effective than a gun at stopping a bear charge. I used bear spray on a black bear twelve years ago at about 15 feet, and it turned him around in a heartbeat. It works.

It makes sense. An animal gasping for breath because it’s lungs and eyes are filled with a burning pepper spray is more likely to stop its charge or change its behavior than a charging bear full of adrenaline with a stinging, superficial bullet wound.

Animals have a much higher pain tolerance than humans, and a bullet wound may be barely noticeable unless it penetrated a major muscle, bone or internal organ. Even then, an animal could survive with a major injury and continue its attack. A deer shot by a hunter rarely falls dead in its tracks even though a well placed bullet found its mark. Now imagine a heavy boned and muscular Grizzly bear protecting its young and charging at 40mph. Good luck making that well placed shot that pierces the bears brain or spine and stops it in its tracks in two seconds.

Additionally, a bear has a very thick and sloped skull that is not easily penetrated with a bullet even by an excellent marksman. The bullet could very well glance off the bone or lose much of it’s energy and lethal power. A frontal shot on a charging bear is likely to result in a wound to a leg or shoulder, with only the possibility of a chest or head shot, which may not be lethal and likely not going to stop a bear in its tracks. And even more likely, is a miss. Not many people practice shooting at a target full of teeth and claws on a surprise attack at up to 40mph. Think about it…

Now let’s go back to the use of bear spray in my incident.

First, my can of bear spray was a well known brand name of the medium 8oz size and still within the expiration date. It put out a good blast and cloud of spray when I tested it three weeks earlier.
I have had a number of government certified bear identification, safety and bear spray use classes over the years with the Forest Service. I am familiar with the distance bear spray travels and its effectiveness.

In my situation, the bear was at full charge the entire time, and did not stop or hesitate as most bears would, opening a good opportunity for the use of bear spray.

Bear spray puts out a good, concentrated cloud to roughly 25 or 30 feet. So ultimately you would want the cloud in the bears face or just in front of it if charging. I estimated that I sprayed at about that distance or likely further at the initial spray but I can only speculate the exact distance. In any case, the cloud of spray engulfed the bear. I am also aware that bear spay has a slight recoil that will lift you arm a couple of inches and shift your spray pattern upward, so I was sure to keep the pattern low to the ground and at the attacker.

The bear did not stop at the cloud of spray and was through it immediately. Had she taken a deep breath at the right moment while going through the spray, it may have been a different story. Had she slowed, stopped or bluff charged at the cloud for a second, I believe the spray would have had an obvious effect as well. In this situation, I believe her speed and determination just carried her through the spray with a minimal effect that did not deter her. She was focused on getting to me.

So I ask that anyone out there in bear country or around other wild animals, please carry your pepper spray. Don’t be discouraged or consider it unnecessary just because it didn’t work for me that day. My situation was very unique. The odds are still highly in your favor that it could save you life in the event of an attack.

If you want to really be prepared, attend a bear identification and safety class and take the opportunity to test an inert can of bear spray so you know what to expect if you had to use one.

Also, I like to give a quick test burst of my bear spray once a year to know it is operating properly. I have heard others say this is a bad idea because it uses up a half second of spray you may need to use on a bear. That is a legitimate concern, so each person should make their own decision on the matter. If you choose to test, make it a very quick burst and be certain to spray in a large, open space outdoors, and away from people or pets. Common sense should tell you not to spray into the wind. After the quick test spray, immediately move away from the area and wash your hands.

Todd Orr
Skyblade Knives.
 

GLB

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Haven't listened to the Podcast yet but will soon. The subject of bear defense with a handgun comes up all the time and highly debated. About 2 years ago myself and a friend, both of us are Firearms Instructors for our departments and active competition shooters for 3 gun and precision/long range conducted a test. We used a charging target that gives you 2.5 seconds to react before it reaches you at 7 yards.
The handguns used by us were Glock 20 with full power 10mm loads, 44 mag revolvers, 454 casull revolver. The test was done from guard (weapon out of the holster and in a fighting stance)

We were looking for the best hit probability on a moving/ Charging target with enough gun/bullet/load that could penetrate the skull of a bear. Previous penetration test has shown that the above handguns/load combinations will penetrate a bears skull both black bear and brown bear.

The end results were the Glock 20 10mm had the highest hit probability hands down with and average of 4 accurate hits in the head size target in 2.5 seconds. That compared to two hits with the 44 mag and 1 hit with the 454. Accuracy was marginal at best with the 44 and 454. The Glock 20 we kept our hits in a 4" group centered on the 9" head target and with the revolvers we used all of the 9" to count as a hit.

So for me if I'm only going to carry a handgun in bear country it's the Glock 20 10mm. The shotgun with slugs or rifle is always a better choice.
 

sneaky

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They also mentioned in the podcast that there were numerous reports of bears getting sprayed, leaving, then coming back PISSED. What do you do when that happens?

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sneaky

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Haven't listened to the Podcast yet but will soon. The subject of bear defense with a handgun comes up all the time and highly debated. About 2 years ago myself and a friend, both of us are Firearms Instructors for our departments and active competition shooters for 3 gun and precision/long range conducted a test. We used a charging target that gives you 2.5 seconds to react before it reaches you at 7 yards.
The handguns used by us were Glock 20 with full power 10mm loads, 44 mag revolvers, 454 casull revolver. The test was done from guard (weapon out of the holster and in a fighting stance)

We were looking for the best hit probability on a moving/ Charging target with enough gun/bullet/load that could penetrate the skull of a bear. Previous penetration test has shown that the above handguns/load combinations will penetrate a bears skull both black bear and brown bear.

The end results were the Glock 20 10mm had the highest hit probability hands down with and average of 4 accurate hits in the head size target in 2.5 seconds. That compared to two hits with the 44 mag and 1 hit with the 454. Accuracy was marginal at best with the 44 and 454. The Glock 20 we kept our hits in a 4" group centered on the 9" head target and with the revolvers we used all of the 9" to count as a hit.

So for me if I'm only going to carry a handgun in bear country it's the Glock 20 10mm for me. The shotgun with slugs our rifle is always a better choice.
So, do you always walk around in the guard stance? Did you try the test with 1.5 seconds instead of 2.5? A grizz can cover that ground in 1.5 seconds. Good info, but most bear encounters occur in such a way that it takes your brain longer than that to realize you're in trouble.

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OP
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Haven't listened to the Podcast yet but will soon. The subject of bear defense with a handgun comes up all the time and highly debated. About 2 years ago myself and a friend, both of us are Firearms Instructors for our departments and active competition shooters for 3 gun and precision/long range conducted a test. We used a charging target that gives you 2.5 seconds to react before it reaches you at 7 yards.
The handguns used by us were Glock 20 with full power 10mm loads, 44 mag revolvers, 454 casull revolver. The test was done from guard (weapon out of the holster and in a fighting stance)

We were looking for the best hit probability on a moving/ Charging target with enough gun/bullet/load that could penetrate the skull of a bear. Previous penetration test has shown that the above handguns/load combinations will penetrate a bears skull both black bear and brown bear.

The end results were the Glock 20 10mm had the highest hit probability hands down with and average of 4 accurate hits in the head size target in 2.5 seconds. That compared to two hits with the 44 mag and 1 hit with the 454. Accuracy was marginal at best with the 44 and 454. The Glock 20 we kept our hits in a 4" group centered on the 9" head target and with the revolvers we used all of the 9" to count as a hit.

So for me if I'm only going to carry a handgun in bear country it's the Glock 20 10mm. The shotgun with slugs or rifle is always a better choice.

I think the Glock is a good choice, but people have to understand that most 10 mm ammo is not fit for bear protection. It’s almost a reload only option to get heavy hard cast bullets loaded to top end pressures. And these type of loads should be used in the test, because it will effect your follow up speed. It should come as no surprise that the Glock works best for you and your buddy since you’re both officers that probably do most of your shooting with Glocks. I’m sure if we had a cowboy action quick draw artist repeat the test, we might get different results.


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7mmremmag

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Just trying to make sense of what the guy was talking about. My point was not about multiple shots but the penetration of a single shot, entry and exit. The guy on the podcast makes some interesting claims and tells the story of his student using a 9mm. Personally I think every attack is different just like every bear is. In one case it may only take spray and the next anything short of a 50bmg wasn't going to stop it.

Absolutely agree with the last sentence.

I look at it like this in the 9mm vs 45 debate with bears, neither are anywhere near perfect and the difference in penetration is pretty statistically insignificant, so shoot what you can shoot best. One is faster, one makes larger diameter holes. Worry more about proficiency and carrying a tough bullet designed for deep penetration (like the buffalo bore +p loads), not human self defense.
 
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