Corner Crossing in Montana

[Matt Cashell]

There is a lot of trespassing law that has already proven that you can't possibly follow a property line without occupying private space, either on the ground or in the air above it.

We aren't actually talking about the crime of criminal trespass (MCA 45-6-203), we are discussing Failure to Obtain Landowner's Permission for Hunting (MCA 87-6-415).

This is an important distinction in Montana, because just walking across unposted private land is not a violation of Criminal Trespass. Landowners have to either post property according to law, or give personal notice to any one person that they can't trespass, before such trespass becomes criminal.

Hunters have a higher burden than the general public though with the 87-6-415, in that there is no requirement for the landowner to post or notify the hunter.

That alone is an unfair application of law that discriminates against hunters, IMO.

 

[Redside]

Here's a novel idea, call the property owner and ask for permission to cross his property

I know, it's just too difficult right? I mean in Montana all you have to do is use the Montana Cadastral web site (Montana Cadastral) and it'll provide the name and contact information of any and all of the property owners in the state.

How about because as a public land owner I should already have permission to step from one piece of public to another piece of public? Why should I have to ask someone, because they own the airspace above it that my foot will swing over, give me a break.

I don't corner cross, but with today's technology there shouldn't be an excuse to not allow this. If a person is doing everything they can to cross at the exact point it shouldn't be an issue. I understand it's within feet, but come on, really?

If your really that bent out of shape over the exact point, fine I'll pay a yearly fee for MTFWP to go out and mark these places so we can cross at the exact point. They already do this for legally accessible state land, what would be the big deal to put one out at the corner?

Check this article out from 2014, there are almost 2 million acres in MT alone we are locked out of, allowing corner crossing would open up 724,000 acres, something has to change.

http://fwp.mt.gov/mtoutdoors/pdf/2014/AccessingPublicLands.pdf

"Public land in Montana inaccessible
because the public
can’t cross corners .......724,000 acres"

 

[wapitibob]

So if 2 pieces of public land touch corners, it sounds like there is no specific law preventing me from going from the one to the other, but its something that is frowned upon?

Landowners frown on it because they may want to use the checkerboard as their own property.

As you're read, when someone actually calls, there is no law against it. Wyoming handles it as I suspect Montana does, crossing from public to public, with no intent to hunt private, isn't a game violation so the dept doesn't cite. If a Deputy is called, it will depend on the instructions they have been given from the County DA, as to whether they will cite for criminal trespass. In WY it's a county by county issue. When I talked to the WY Game dept Chief Warden and brought up the air space issue, he chuckled. If I walk down your property line with my arm sticking out, I'll never be cited, ever. There's no intent to enter your property, same as crossing at a corner.

 

[cornfedkiller]

So why is this only an issue is Montana?

Montana is the only place I've heard mentioned when talking about it.

 

[wyodan]

So why is this only an issue is Montana?

Montana is the only place I've heard mentioned when talking about it.

It’s an issue in Wyoming as well. It would be great if one state would set precedent on the subject, but they all leave them as a grey area.

 

[Murdy]

Some states probably have more defined precedent about what constitutes trespassing in terms of passing through the air above private land.

 

[elkduds]

It is only an issue because private property owners want to continue to block/limit public access to public land parcels that they consider under their control, if not literal ownership.

 

[mvmnts]

Not exactly, you never have to prove your innocence. The burden is on the State to prove that you trespassed. The legal issue will be whether invading that airspace above the land constituted trespassing. In most states, I'm pretty sure the answer would be yes. You can't, for example, allow a projection from a building on your land to cross a property line. On the other hand, airplane over-flights are permissible. I think the question turns on whether the entry into the air space would/could interfere with the owner's use and enjoyment of the land. Clearly, less than five feet off the ground would.

BTW, the gps companies disclaimer is more to protect them from being sued if you are successfully prosecuted for trespassing after you go somewhere the gps told you you could.

They covered this on meateater and in some places you can send projectiles over private land. But IMO it can be a dick move in some cases.

 

[mtwarden]

It’s an issue in Wyoming as well. It would be great if one state would set precedent on the subject, but they all leave them as a grey area.

Wyoming did have one case go to court, county attorney decided to press charges. They (the State) lost in a jury trial in lower court and decided not to appeal to district court, so still no real precedent anywhere that I'm aware of. I believe Wyoming, like Montana, also had several bills introduced on both sides- all failed.

 

[Mike7]

I would support any organization that tried to fix this legally. It seems that there are already all forms of easements on private land for the public welfare. I mean there are all kinds of things that you can not do on your property because it might effect some shore bird, or cause possible erosion, or possibly affect the water supply somehow, or landlock another land owner, etc.

A corner crossing easement not only doesn't affect how the landowner can use his or her property but would be for the public welfare. Far too many people suffer from anxiety and depression, which has clearly been shown to be improved with exercise such as hiking and hunting. And most people can not afford to buy their own private property to participate in these health promoting behaviors.

Furthermore, should not the public have an implied easement from the time that these checkerboards were setup. Was the gov't/public planning to never have access to those lands when the private land was granted. I say no!

Waiting for a lawyer type who actually knows what they are talking about to comment...

 

[HookUp]

It looks like this needs to be challenged openly. Let BHA and others rally for a defense fund. I'd rather have a law than no answer.

Myself and countless other hunter brethren would all donate to the fight.

 

[Matt Cashell]

Waiting for a lawyer type who actually knows what they are talking about to comment...

Geez,

Sorry we wasted your time.

 

[Matt Cashell]

It looks like this needs to be challenged openly. Let BHA and others rally for a defense fund. I'd rather have a law than no answer.

Myself and countless other hunter brethren would all donate to the fight.

I have talked to several organizations and public access lawyers about this. They are gun-shy due to this hot mess:

United States v. Causby - Wikipedia

The plaintiff claimed the chickens were so stressed they literally exploded. You can't make this stuff up.

 

[ramont]

Because there is a lot of public checkerboarded by private and many landowners use the corner-crossing argument as a way to control access to the public land their property touches, essentially making it theirs.

I believe in the rights of landowners, but i also believe in the public having access to public lands.

Do you have property that is affected by the concept of corner crossing? If so, would you allow someone to corner-cross if they asked?

Yes, I own acreage that backs up to national forest land and I've got neighbors on either side of my property, if a person actually asked I'd have no problem with letting them cross, on the other hand, if I catch them just doing it without asking I'll call the local warden and the sheriff's department. I get tired of these claims that some people wont ask because they just "know" that the property owner wont give them permission to cross - that's a crappy excuse for being cowardly. Then there are these people that claim that corner crossing isn't trespassing, really? How about I come over to your house and cross you property corner several times over a period of a few weeks before sunrise, lets see how long it takes you to complain about me trespassing. The problem isn't with people crossing, it's with irresponsible people that don't respect your property, people that drop garbage on your property, or people that see nothing wrong with shooting up your property or animals. Think about it logically, if I allow one person to pass through my property corner without insisting on their asking permission then I can't complain when two, three, 50, 100, or more people cross my property without permission. I allow one to cross and I can't stop anybody and if one of those people trashes my property I can't really identify the culprit because I have no way of knowing who's been through.

The bottom line is that the FWP says it's not allowed, if you do it and are caught then you stand the chance of being prosecuted. If you think it's worth the risk then be my guest and take your chances. I wont do it and have never found a reason to want to do it, I've always found a way in to the places that I wanted to hunt without having to disrespect somebody else's rights.

 

[ramont]

So why is this only an issue is Montana?

Montana is the only place I've heard mentioned when talking about it.

Because there are a lot jerks that think that they have the right to do something just because they want to. It doesn't matter to them who's rights are violated as long as they get to do what they want, sort of like a little kid that hasn't learned to share yet.

 

[ahlgringo]

Yes, I own acreage that backs up to national forest land and I've got neighbors on either side of my property, if a person actually asked I'd have no problem with letting them cross, on the other hand, if I catch them just doing it without asking I'll call the local warden and the sheriff's department. I get tired of these claims that some people wont ask because they just "know" that the property owner wont give them permission to cross - that's a crappy excuse for being cowardly. Then there are these people that claim that corner crossing isn't trespassing, really? How about I come over to your house and cross you property corner several times over a period of a few weeks before sunrise, lets see how long it takes you to complain about me trespassing. The problem isn't with people crossing, it's with irresponsible people that don't respect your property, people that drop garbage on your property, or people that see nothing wrong with shooting up your property or animals. Think about it logically, if I allow one person to pass through my property corner without insisting on their asking permission then I can't complain when two, three, 50, 100, or more people cross my property without permission. I allow one to cross and I can't stop anybody and if one of those people trashes my property I can't really identify the culprit because I have no way of knowing who's been through.

Although I agree with the majority of your sentiment, you seem to reference “my” property numerous times in your post. I think that is the major issue being discussed here. What exactly compromises “your” property and how is it that I am supposed to access “my” property (blm/etc) when it is locked in by four corners, where technically I do not set foot on “your” property.

 

[ramont]

Waiting for a lawyer type who actually knows what they are talking about to comment...

A perfect example of the people that thinks property owners shouldn't have any rights if it prevents them from doing what they want. It doesn't matter what some lawyer has to say about the issue, right now, until somebody takes this issue before a judge, the FWP makes the rules and they say it's not permitted- period, end of story. If you don't like how it's handled then make sure that you are caught corner crossing and insist that it goes to court. If you're confident that the money and time you spend going to court wont be a waste then you'll be the person that sets a precedent and solves the question once and for all.

 

[Matt Cashell]

The problem isn't with people crossing, it's with irresponsible people that don't respect your property, people that drop garbage on your property, or people that see nothing wrong with shooting up your property or animals.

Nobody on this thread is advocating for doing any of those things. They are only talking about stepping from public land to public land. If they shot up your property or dropped garbage on your land, that would be illegal separate from corner hopping.

I am confused about the shooting your animals part though, what do you mean by that?

 

[Matt Cashell]

Wyoming did have one case go to court, county attorney decided to press charges. They (the State) lost in a jury trial in lower court and decided not to appeal to district court,

The state cannot appeal a jury aquittal. That's double jeopardy. It would have had to have been a retrial after a hung jury.

 

[3forks]

Yes, I own acreage that backs up to national forest land and I've got neighbors on either side of my property, if a person actually asked I'd have no problem with letting them cross, on the other hand, if I catch them just doing it without asking I'll call the local warden and the sheriff's department. I get tired of these claims that some people wont ask because they just "know" that the property owner wont give them permission to cross - that's a crappy excuse for being cowardly. Then there are these people that claim that corner crossing isn't trespassing, really? How about I come over to your house and cross you property corner several times over a period of a few weeks before sunrise, lets see how long it takes you to complain about me trespassing. The problem isn't with people crossing, it's with irresponsible people that don't respect your property, people that drop garbage on your property, or people that see nothing wrong with shooting up your property or animals. Think about it logically, if I allow one person to pass through my property corner without insisting on their asking permission then I can't complain when two, three, 50, 100, or more people cross my property without permission. I allow one to cross and I can't stop anybody and if one of those people trashes my property I can't really identify the culprit because I have no way of knowing who's been through.

The bottom line is that the FWP says it's not allowed, if you do it and are caught then you stand the chance of being prosecuted. If you think it's worth the risk then be my guest and take your chances. I wont do it and have never found a reason to want to do it, I've always found a way in to the places that I wanted to hunt without having to disrespect somebody else's rights.[/QUOTE

You've said your property backs up to public and you have neighbors on each side of you. Unless I'm misunderstanding you, it sounds like your property isn't oriented in a way that would allow someone trying to access public land via corner crossing at all. Correct me if I'm wrong about that.

No one on here has stated they believe they should be able to cross someone's private property without the landowner's permission.