Corner Crossing in Montana

[wapitibob]

The only WY case in recent memory that I know of was lost by the state because the accused was cited for trespassing under Game dept regulation. Under that regulation the person has to enter private with the intent to hunt. There was no intent to hunt so the judge ruled against the state. I don't believe they ever got to the point of discussing whether he actually entered private by crossing a corner.

 

[mpg07]

Wow a land owner who cant grant a 24" easement for someone to walk through. To a public property just sounds wrong.

 

[mtwarden]

The state cannot appeal a jury aquittal. That's double jeopardy. It would have had to have been a retrial after a hung jury.

- I misspoke, it was actually a county judge that acquitted the gentleman and I believe the State could have appealed, but declined

 

[Mike7]

Playing devil's advocate here to property owners with their panties in a bunch about losing exclusive access to public land (and as Bitterroot stated those other activities like property damage are already illegal, so not relevant)...

I am fat, but don't even need 24" of air space to cross from public land that I own to other public land that I own and am being kept from. And only 1/2 of that air space easement that I might need would be from any one property.

Also, I thought one of the principles in determining easements was limiting potential effects on the landowner? There would be no effect with legal corner crossing.

And finally, what hunter would lose a jury trial, even with me as their lawyer (or maybe just as uninformed co-counsel to Bitterroot). But what do I know, for I am just a caveman. I don't understand your complex legal terms or modern ways. But what I do understand is human suffering and injustice, which was around in my caveman times just as it is now. Tell me jury members, Joe Hardworking Hunter is just out with his daughter trying to use their public land to put food on the table and create wholesome memories when Big Bad Land Owner Corporation owned by privileged dudes from California comes and trys to keep Montana residents from accessing their own land. Regardless of what the law is or is not, you vote with you hearts and minds jury members and do what's right.

 

[Btaylor]

I am certainly no scientist but just how exactly does one prove you have occupied air? I don't see it as possible as you can not get on air or get in air. At best you can move air out of the way but since you can not see air how is the burden of proof met by the prosecution?

 

[Schaaf]

Ramont, can I come corner cross over your property?

 

[ssssnake529]

I would have no qualms about corner crossing. In fact, if a landowner was there, and told me not to, I'd be even more inclined to do it.

If that means I end up as a test case challenging it in court, so be it.

It is inherently unfair for landowners to use this corner crossing issue to extend their private property rights to public property.

 

[HookUp]

Crop dusters are legal and they fly over all kinds of peoples property at low altitudes. They are the nations most chronic trespassers.

 

[FlyGuy]

We should stage a protest. Get a couple hundred folks off of Rokslide, BHA, etc together for a big ole Corner Crossing Event. Alert the media, alert the sheriff and wardens. Hell, get the highschool marching band out there and Make a big ass spectacle out of it as we all corner cross on National Television. I'd love to see if anyone has the balls to arrest us for stepping OVER a couple inches of someone's property onto the land that we own but they prevent us from accessing. Let the world see just how ridiculous that is. Maybe they do arrest us, but then the DA is really going to have his hands full with the public outcry.

Or maybe they are smart. They just stand there smiling on TV watching everyone step over an imaginary checkerboard line and they don't arrest us b/c they get how stupid this is. ...and that starts to set the precedent.

I'll be in Montana in 2 weeks!!

(But maybe we can schedule the protest for the following week b/c I'd really like to get my bear hunt in 1st. Just in case! HaHa!)

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[Jbehredt]

We should stage a protest. Get a couple hundred folks off of Rokslide, BHA, etc together for a big ole Corner Crossing Event. Alert the media, alert the sheriff and wardens. Hell, get the highschool marching band out there and Make a big ass spectacle out of it as we all corner cross on National Television. I'd love to see if anyone has the balls to arrest us for stepping OVER a couple inches of someone's property onto the land that we own but they prevent us from accessing. Let the world see just how ridiculous that is. Maybe they do arrest us, but then the DA is really going to have his hands full with the public outcry.

Or maybe they are smart. They just stand there smiling on TV watching everyone step over an imaginary checkerboard line and they don't arrest us b/c they get how stupid this is. ...and that starts to set the precedent.

I'll be in Montana in 2 weeks!!

(But maybe we can schedule the protest for the following week b/c I'd really like to get my bear hunt in 1st. Just in case! HaHa!)

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Can Patagonia come? Too soon?

 

[Mt Al]

Typically the amount of air space is assumed to be to the height of a typical two story house. This is why some people have been forced to remove private wind generators and flagpoles from their property, those things stood higher than the typical two story house and as such exceeded their private property boundaries.

I'm not being testy, but "typically"...is that law or neighborhood covenants? Covenants aren't law. Who forced who to remove a private wind generator? Is there case law on that and something to refer to, a link? I'd like to see if that's something that really happens. I have a neighbor, in fact many neighbors, with trees way higher than two story homes, and a three story home. Also grain elevators on commercial land. Two story home with daylight basement, etc. A link to where someone was "forced to remove" that wasn't due to covenants would be nice.

I'd never trust a GPS to tell me where a corner is. Only a surveyor's stake. Period.

My point above, if there is no law that states height of private land "air" boundary, is "precedence": If the air above is private, how high does it go? Honestly? If there's no limit and the land owner has never gone after commercial aircraft, private aircraft, etc., why pick on someone who steps over a known corner? I know this sound ridiculous: an aircraft at 30,000+ feet! However, if there is no legal reference to the privacy of the air above ground or known elevation limit, no past legal rulings, does a person stand a chance by referencing every other form of human that has trespassed in the air above?

I don't cross corners but wish there was a legal ruling. If there's no legal air space above private ground, we'd win.

The amount of public land that's not accessible, but could be with corner crossings, is massive.

 

[juan trueno]

What if the the 2 landowners fences meet at the corner- is anyone still down with crossing it?


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[Matt Cashell]

I don't cross corners but wish there was a legal ruling. If there's no legal air space above private ground, we'd win.

I will post the ruling again:

United States v. Causby - Wikipedia

The court ruled landowners do own the space above the ground, but at some point the airspace becomes public domain for air travel. The big problem is they don’t specify at what height that occurs.

This leaves it open to a reasonableness interpretation, it seems.

 

[Mt Al]

I will post the ruling again:

United States v. Causby - Wikipedia

The court ruled landowners do own the space above the ground, but at some point the airspace becomes public domain for air travel. The big problem is they don’t specify at what height that occurs.

This leaves it open to a reasonableness interpretation, it seems.

Got it, thank you for reposting.

 

[cornfedkiller]

So I just looked at the public land map for Montana (heading there this fall), and can anyone explain to me why the public land is all in a checkerboard pattern?

 

[bowieknife50]

So if a dude owns both sides of the checkerboard opposite public should it be illegal for him to put fence and posts dead in the corners such that it would make it impossible for people to corner cross without touching his property?

This could probably be addressed without courts or government of any kind. Set up a found that pays land owners an easement to cross the corner. I know there would be some dinks that wouldn't take it just out of spite/control but I'd have to think you'd get a lot of corners set up. I know I know we already own that land why should we have to pay? Well if the current legal climate is that you can't cross a corner without trespassing are you going to turn into a violater to prove a point? How many hunters would care if a dollar or two was added to license fees for this fund? I sure wouldn't but I guess there probably are some that would.


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[Jon Boy]

The county prosecutor in an area that I hunt that is very check boarded I am told wont pursue corner hopping cases. Haven't confirmed that yet though. I have no problem with it. If you do it right, people will never know you're there.

Does any one know the max penalty if you're are caught and convicted of trespass for corner hopping?

 

[mtmuley]

The county prosecutor in an area that I hunt that is very check boarded I am told wont pursue corner hopping cases. Haven't confirmed that yet though. I have no problem with it. If you do it right, people will never know you're there.

Does any one know the max penalty if you're are caught and convicted of trespass for corner hopping?

Sounds like you don't care. Why ask? mtmuley

 

[Jon Boy]

Sounds like you don't care. Why ask? mtmuley

Go back to your cave on hunttalk Mr. Troll.

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[ssssnake529]

What if the the 2 landowners fences meet at the corner- is anyone still down with crossing it?


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That's even better. At that point, I know exactly where the property lines are. I'm going across.

I will post the ruling again:

United States v. Causby - Wikipedia

The court ruled landowners do own the space above the ground, but at some point the airspace becomes public domain for air travel. The big problem is they don’t specify at what height that occurs.

This leaves it open to a reasonableness interpretation, it seems.

The Causby case has a very different fact pattern than a corner crossing. The US was buzzing military aircraft at 80 feet above the landowner's property, killing his livestock etc. and rendering the land totally uninhabitable. It's a different situation from stepping from one piece of public land to another piece of public land.

I wouldn't count on this holding to be applied in a corner crossing case. The reasoning in the holding isn't particularly applicable to corner crossings.

So I just looked at the public land map for Montana (heading there this fall), and can anyone explain to me why the public land is all in a checkerboard pattern?

It dates back to the time of the railroad land grants, where railroads were rewarded with alternating sections of land for putting a railroad through federal lands. Lands were granted by square sections, and folks that did things the government wanted (putting in a railroad, developing a mine, homesteading, etc.) typically were granted complete sections of land.