Western tag/lottery systems for dummies...Im the dummy

[Hoythews71]

Can someone help me understand the Western states and help me come up with an application system?

Back story, Im an East Coaster, active duty Navy stationed in Norfolk, VA. Going on my first western hunt, and OTC Colorado archery elk hunt in September. I have 2 WY antelope preference points, but I haven't had a chance to actually go on a hunt because Ive been deployed a ton in the last 4 years. Not trying to land trophy units, but I'd like to have P&Y potential every few years when I'd be able to head West. Very limited in my ability to research currently because I'm deployed (again) and we have a ton of internet security protocols that limit what sites can be viewed while on a deployed warship in the Middle East.

Not looking for honey holes. Just trying to develop a multi-state application strategy that can get me onto elk, mule deer, pronghorn, occasionally bear,, and eventually a moose or two!

Appreciate the help guys!
Tim

 

[Fitzwho]

Which other states and species you can apply for will kind of be budget dependent. My personal app strategy runs me about $1000 per year to buy points and apply for tags in 11 states. I buy points only in some states until my point total lines up with drawing the tag I want. Other states I apply for the tags every year for the slight chance of drawing and relatively inexpensive costs of doing so (not fronting tag fees). I add some state raffle tags every year for the once in a lifetime animals (sheep, moose, etc) just so I have an extra chance in the proverbial hat. Once I start drawing tags and the schedule starts filling in, that is my deciding factor for the rest of the apps I put in for points, or different season dates, so that I don’t get hunts that overlap.

If you want to PM me, I can help you out.

 

[NDGuy]

Not trying to land trophy units, but I'd like to have P&Y potential every few years when I'd be able to head West.

Not looking for honey holes.

http://www.rokslide.com/forums/elk/97447-comes.html

 

[NDGuy]

In all seriousness it's really not that hard to figure out. When the door opens, you buy points..then you apply the next year or whenever you are going. Some states float the tag fee some only charge if you draw.

All of this information is on the G&F websites you just need to find the app and point purchase dates.

 

[swampokie]

I hope u have plenty money! I just threw away another 200$ to Arizona yesterday for a license ill most likely never use. They get more expensive every year and even when they get cheaper like Colorado did this year every one complains because the draw odds tank. Im very frustrated with playing the western app game. Throwing money at the beast!

 

[SoDaky]

Tim,thanks for your service.Take Fitzwho up on his offer and perhaps consider 'Go Hunt' as well.(call them,explain your situation-bet you get help)
Stay safe and good hunting!

 

[Wildlifer]

Randy Newberg has a pretty good podcast specifically about western draw systems and how to do it. I have found this site to be awesome in the amount of help you can get if you ask the right questions. The thing is a lot of guys just want the quick answer to questions that can be researched. "Hey in XXX unit what are the general....... is it a good place to go?" Instead of saying "I am looking at this location a few miles off a road, at this elevation, at this time of year, for this animal, ect, ect, can anyone tell me if I am on the right track or if i need to adjust what I am looking for"

 

[ChrisS]

There are only six or seven states worth targeting as a non-resident and of those, probably three or four are worth building points in depending on your priorities. Read their regs. There's plenty of digital ink spilled on the subject. I highly recommend Randy Newberg's youtube videos on the subject. He has plenty. Also gohunt, a subscription service, has excellent write-ups for each state.

 

[Hoythews71]

In all seriousness it's really not that hard to figure out. When the door opens, you buy points..then you apply the next year or whenever you are going. Some states float the tag fee some only charge if you draw.

All of this information is on the G&F websites you just need to find the app and point purchase dates.

Great.

Well, like I said, I cant get the state game & fish websites to load on a shipboard computer while I'm deployed, so I'm trying to piece together any random info I can to come up with an application plan. Appreciate the "And here it comes..." link, but I'm working with what I have available, and that's not the G&F websites, at least not until I get back in the States late summer, at which point all the application windows will be closed. But glad you have such as great system figured out.

 

[boom]

thanks for doing what you do.

are we talking ARCHERY hunts? maybe since you are iffy on your dates and timelines because of your job..a list of OTC hunts would be helpful?

i think we need to know your weapon of choice. if its a bow; that changes a lot.

 

[realunlucky]

First thank you for serving this great country. One question, if you can't load the states fish and game web sites how you going to buy points? Here is the outline I use.
1. Decide on budget
2. Decide on target species
3. Decide on goals some states have the best trophy quality but lack opportunity others are the reverse.
I been playing the points game for over a decade and still use a service to help keep current on rule changes, point trends, and bounce ideas off someone else because afterall everything said and done it's a huge time and money investment. I'm using epic outdoors and have been happy with thier services. Good luck and stay safe

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[Hoythews71]

Thanks for all the responses so far guys! MUCH appreciated! I was able to read the Newberg article about his strategy but I cant get the videos to play. Better than nothing.

realunlucky, if Im deployed and cant get the state sites to load, I usually send my info to a buddy back in the states and he buys points for me. I had to do that last year for my Wyoming antelope point and an Iowa whitetail point. Its crazy that I can get Rokslide and Facebook to load, but a government website doesn't work...

These would all be archery hunts, public land, unguided.

Heres what I'm thinking so far:
Elk - Colorado (OTC tags available while I build points), Wyoming (cheap points), New Mexico (crazy lucky flier pick), Kentucky (close to VA, decent herd).
Mule Deer - Colorado (again, OTC available), Wyoming (again, cheap points), Utah, South Dakota (got a friend that lives there)
Antelope - Wyoming (already got a start here), South Dakota, Nebraska
Bear - All OTC. Idaho, Canada, North Carolina, Wisconsin
Moose - No idea...

Any thoughts/recommendations?

 

[muddydogs]

I would throw AZ in the mix for Elk and Mule deer. Elk is over but you have a couple more days to get AZ deer points.

If your putting in for Utah deer you already have the license you have to purchase so buy Utah elk points as well. Same for any state you have to purchase a license, whats another $10 to $15 a point after you spend $60 for a Utah license or $160 for an AZ license.

For Moose I would save your point money and plan an Alaskan or Canadian hunt. Chances of drawing a moose tag in the lower 48 is slim to none.

 

[Fitzwho]

Here we go...

Deer: There aren't any OTC Mule Deer Tags (some whitetail tags are OTC class B tags) in Colorado and with the changes to the application process this year, there likely will be few if any leftover licenses. There are still some units that may be drawn with 0-2 points, but calling them OTC isn't correct. Idaho has OTC mule deer tags (among others). Utah, like Colorado, has "general" units that can be drawn with 0-2 points for archery, New Mexico has some units with very good draw odds as well, but trophy quality can be hit or miss. I also build points in South Dakota, and will be applying for tags in 2019.

Elk: Colorado is the obvious choice for OTC and now that its cheap to build points, its a double whammy of getting to hunt whenever you want while building points for one of the few hard to draw elk units. Idaho and New Mexico again depending on scheduling and shooting for a good tag with the straight lottery system, with the option to buy an OTC tag in Idaho, if you don't draw out. Kentucky has long odds, but some very large elk have been killed there.

Any of the states that have cheap points, you might as well apply and build points for all species, if you are going to apply for one.

The only other state I would mention for Bears would be Montana, but there are OTC bear tags in almost every state (AZ, NM, CO, et al).

For Antelope, you can buy non-resident OTC archery tags in Kansas as well.

Moose gets a bit more complicated. Idaho has the best draw odds due to the fact that they make you choose one species (can't apply for deer, elk, or antelope if you apply for a sheep or a moose, etc) and you have to front the $2000 tag fee and pay an additional percentage (3% i think) as a convenience fee. A couple states you probably haven't thought about for moose are Maine and Vermont, which have Canadian moose draws also. Guys that are just getting in to it (me included) are a bit behind the 8-ball as far as Shiras Moose go in Colorado, Utah, Wyoming, and Montana.

As far as getting your applications in while you are on deployment, there are services that can help you with that, so that you aren't relying on a buddy, which is cheaper, but its that companies job to make sure they get you put in.

 

[boom]

Thanks for all the responses so far guys! MUCH appreciated! I was able to read the Newberg article about his strategy but I cant get the videos to play. Better than nothing.

realunlucky, if Im deployed and cant get the state sites to load, I usually send my info to a buddy back in the states and he buys points for me. I had to do that last year for my Wyoming antelope point and an Iowa whitetail point. Its crazy that I can get Rokslide and Facebook to load, but a government website doesn't work...

These would all be archery hunts, public land, unguided.

Heres what I'm thinking so far:
Elk - Colorado (OTC tags available while I build points), Wyoming (cheap points), New Mexico (crazy lucky flier pick), Kentucky (close to VA, decent herd).
Mule Deer - Colorado (again, OTC available), Wyoming (again, cheap points), Utah, South Dakota (got a friend that lives there)
Antelope - Wyoming (already got a start here), South Dakota, Nebraska
Bear - All OTC. Idaho, Canada, North Carolina, Wisconsin
Moose - No idea...

Any thoughts/recommendations?

add a winter hunt in AZ. OTC archery tag for couse deer/mule deer. it is my best most awesomest, difficult, challenge hunt. super fun , super difficult. try to get in on the javalina tags while you are there.

and here goes. Archery? western? california. there are some whopper deer. there are some GREAT draw hunts, but your second choice can always be an AO (archery only) tag that gets you access to damn near 50% of the state (and you accumulate points!). i can point you to a great difficult high elevation deer hunt you can hike in with an AO tag in your pocket. you can hunt some fun good unit with 3 to four points.

 

[nazca]

If you're putting in for more than a state or two, I think getting a gohunt.com membership will pay for itself. and you will no longer need to research on the state websites. Just getting the email reminders of draw deadlines is worth it, and they're just the icing on the cake. After using their draw odds & unit filtering, I can't even believe I got by without it.

Newberg has also released several podcast episodes laying out timing of application deadlines and his general advice. Episode 48 for elk, and I think he had another for deer.

Your and my strategies are similar, except I'm coming from the west coast, so I don't apply for kentucky, SD, nebraska. Generally speaking, I've focused on states where I can have a reasonable quality hunt every year, or at least fairly often, for at least one species. For many states, once you apply for one species, you might as well apply for them all. This is how I look at it:

Colorado - OTC Elk is my fallback plan if I don't draw anywhere else and while I build points. (last year I got small 6x6 in a OTC unit with low-single digit success rate). Deer - plan to burn points every 2-4 years. Also building points for everything else.
Idaho - thinking about trying it for OTC elk instead of CO for a fallback. I apply for a 'trophy species' draw here, which means I can't draw for anything else.
Wyoming - archery antelope hunt every year. You can find cool looking antelope in every unit, so for me it isn't worth building points. Also spot and stalk with a bow is pretty awesome. One of my favorite hunts. I'm hoping next year i'll get my first WY elk tag with 3 points. Also building points for everything else.
New Mexico - Trying to get lucky every year. I apply for every species, but that requires a lot of float (this year it was just short of $9k).
Nevada - decent deer hunts with a handful of points. I build points for everything else as well, but it will be a long time/never before I draw. I chukar hunt here every year, so I already have the license. For a lot of people the price of the license wouldn't be worth building points for deer.

So, the result of this strategy:
Elk: better-than-OTC hunt in one of WY, NM or (draw) CO almost every year, and OTC for the other years. Hopefully I'll draw NV before I die.
Deer: fairly good draw in one of WY, NM, CO or NV pretty much every year that I can fit it in my calendar (for me deer hunting is priority 2 after elk, and I can't do both every year).
Antelope: every year in WY. but maybe down the road my points in other states will add up to something.
Wildcard: several very small chances of something super unique, like Oryx in NM, buffalo in WY, or a trophy draw in ID.
I'm thinking of adding montana to the mix next year, but haven't researched it that much. I also apply in my home state of WA, but i wouldn't recommend for non-residents.

 

[Beendare]

Thx for your service Hoyt...if there is anything specific...feel free to PM me.

Re draws; I would highly recommend a subscription to one of the services for a year that you can study carefully....then reconcile against applicants. You want to make sure you understand how point creep affects you....as its creeping every year...sometimes a couple points.

For example; everyone is saying 'apply to CO' which you probably should but study the application data to get a full view of what you are getting yourself in to. The applicants in CO have gone through the roof.....so study odds and applicants to get a realistic view. If CO limited sheep applicants to only those that have already applied it would take over 500 years to draw everyone out. In other words, there will be guys dying on that list.

My 16 years of applying in Nev for archery elk now gives me a 1.6% chance of drawing one of the good elk tags.....nice huh?

Its not all doom and gloom. You can develop strategies to get some decent hunts....

 

[Hoythews71]

Guys, this is perfect! These are the nuances in this whole lottery concept that I haven't been able to find to get an understanding of.

I think I can get a decent plan tailored off of this. Reading Newberg's article and digging up a few others, it was easy to come up with a single species plan, but trying to get a realistic gameplan together for multi-state AND multi-species has been completely overwhelming me. It's starting to make sense that if I'm applying for one species in a state, I might as well be applying for more.

I hadn't even considered javelina, California deer, Kansas pronghorn. Moose, I was realistically looking at Canada and Maine. Canada is so cheap to hunt bears, and North Carolina is literally an hour drive south when I'm stateside.

 

[sneaky]

In all seriousness it's really not that hard to figure out. When the door opens, you buy points..then you apply the next year or whenever you are going. Some states float the tag fee some only charge if you draw.

All of this information is on the G&F websites you just need to find the app and point purchase dates.

And a lot of those websites are restricted when deployed. Have you ever tried researching anything when using govt computers from a combat zone? It sucks. That, and the fact that your allotted time to use a comp is extremely limited.

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[sneaky]

There's no OTC deer in Colorado

Thanks for all the responses so far guys! MUCH appreciated! I was able to read the Newberg article about his strategy but I cant get the videos to play. Better than nothing.

realunlucky, if Im deployed and cant get the state sites to load, I usually send my info to a buddy back in the states and he buys points for me. I had to do that last year for my Wyoming antelope point and an Iowa whitetail point. Its crazy that I can get Rokslide and Facebook to load, but a government website doesn't work...

These would all be archery hunts, public land, unguided.

Heres what I'm thinking so far:
Elk - Colorado (OTC tags available while I build points), Wyoming (cheap points), New Mexico (crazy lucky flier pick), Kentucky (close to VA, decent herd).
Mule Deer - Colorado (again, OTC available), Wyoming (again, cheap points), Utah, South Dakota (got a friend that lives there)
Antelope - Wyoming (already got a start here), South Dakota, Nebraska
Bear - All OTC. Idaho, Canada, North Carolina, Wisconsin
Moose - No idea...

Any thoughts/recommendations?

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