Shoot a wolf...go to jail

[jspradley]

Prison time for a legitimate mistake is too far, fines and restitution are perfectly acceptable.

If you can't make the ID on a potentially critically endangered animals then you shouldn't shoot.

Now mistakes will always happen and that should absolutely be taken into consideration and treated the same as any other hunting mistake.

 

[spike camp]

Someone correct me if I’m wrong...if you’re criminally prosecuted and found guilty, that doesn’t automatically mean jail time and its up to the judge to set the fines/punishment.

How does the current law read, regarding the accidental killing of a Mexican Wolf?
What’s protocol (considering this wolf almost went extinct)?
There are only 140 or so of these native Wolves in the wild, i would assume even seeing one is rare.

 

[mproberts]

According to AZGFD there are roughly 50 of them roaming over 6.4 million acres, so to put that into terms you guys get... your chances of running into one are probably the same as winning 2 Desert Sheep tags in the same year.

 

[Beendare]

Identifying what you shoot at is not the issue here....

The issue is, The Penalty. No one is saying there shouldn't be a penalty....do you side with the antis proposal for "mandatory jail time" or not?
____________

Where did you get that paragraph Spike camp? Sounds like a fund raising speil. It sure makes it seem like there are only a handful left. You do know they transplanted these from packs of wolves in Mexico where they still live, Correct?

Now my guess is the Mexican gov doesn't devote millions of taxpayer dollars picking up wolf scat and monitoring their every move like we do here in the US....our taxpayer dollars at work. Mexico has no clue how many wolves they have

I wonder where the 250 that we are keeping in captivity are considered in the count....and are costing us?

..

I'm probably one of -not many- here that have actually seen these wolves. While hunting in the white Mtns I had them howling at me a couple nights when coming out in the dark.....and caught them out in the binos one day working through the timber.

 

[spike camp]

Identifying what you shoot at is not the issue here....

The issue is, The Penalty. No one is saying there shouldn't be a penalty....do you side with the antis proposal for "mandatory jail time" or not?
____________

Where did you get that paragraph Spike camp? Sounds like a fund raising speil. It sure makes it seem like there are only a handful left. You do know they transplanted these from packs of wolves in Mexico where they still live, Correct?

Now my guess is the Mexican gov doesn't devote millions of taxpayer dollars picking up wolf scat and monitoring their every move like we do here in the US....our taxpayer dollars at work. Mexico has no clue how many wolves they have

I wonder where the 250 that we are keeping in captivity are considered in the count....and are costing us?

..

I'm probably one of -not many- here that have actually seen these wolves. While hunting in the white Mtns I had them howling at me a couple nights when coming out in the dark.....and caught them out in the binos one day working through the timber.

Here is Wikipeda info, which is similar to the other cut and paste:
Though once held in high regard in Pre-Columbian Mexico,[5] it is the most endangered gray wolf in North America, having been extirpated in the wild during the mid-1900s through a combination of hunting, trapping, poisoning and digging pups from dens. After being listed under the Endangered Species Act in 1976, the United States and Mexico collaborated to capture all lobos remaining in the wild. This extreme measure prevented the lobos' extinction. Five wild Mexican wolves (four males and one pregnant female) were captured alive in Mexico from 1977 to 1980 and used to start a captive breeding program. From this program, captive-bred Mexican wolves were released into recovery areas in Arizona and New Mexico beginning in 1998 in order to assist the animals' recolonization of their former historical range.[6]

As of 2017, there are 143 Mexican wolves living wild and 240 in captive breeding programs.[7]

 

[spike camp]

Jail time is over the top, but stiff measures to prevent ‘accidental’ shootings seems appropriate considering not only the past effort to protect this animal, but also how easily it can be mistaken.

 

[Mark]

S.s.s.

Rarely does that work. The first S is the easy part. The second is hardly worth the effort. But that third S is the one that brings down 99% of the poachers.

They just have to tell someone...

 

[mtwarden]

I've worked with dozens of local, state and federal judges in the realm of wildlife law, there isn't a judge that I've worked with that would sentence anyone to jail time for mistakenly killing an animal they thought was something else

with the caveat that you've called the appropriate authorities when you discovered your mistake; try to cover up the mistake, lie about it, etc then yeah you're hanging out there

fined? possibly, too many different scenarios to broad brush it

 

[TheHardWay]

Rarely does that work. The first S is the easy part. The second is hardly worth the effort. But that third S is the one that brings down 99% of the poachers.

They just have to tell someone...

Agreed. I don't condone poaching, was just bringing some humor to the thread. Every time the topic of wolves is brought up, SSS comes up like clockwork and I had to be that guy this time.

 

[Beendare]

Just posting to keep hunters in the loop.

I hate the fact that these lawsuits are happening....and I hate that "Hunting" as we know it is a political issue....just doesn't seem that these fringe outfits should be able to spend gobs of $$ that hogtie our already shoestring budget F&G depts....but they do.

Lawsuits from PITA, WEG Defenders of Wildlife........how does that help wildlife? These lawsuits are a nightmare for the F&G...and causes them to divert resources away from actual wildlife management.

In reality its hunters that are supporting wildlife populations....these fringe outfits do very little except to disrupt.

I hate that its political....and these frivolous lawsuits...thanks to SCI for doing the dirty work.

 

[nexus]

For all concerned, the subject SCI article is actually dated September 2014. What was the outcome of the fight?

 

[Jbehredt]

Jail time is over the top, but stiff measures to prevent ‘accidental’ shootings seems appropriate considering not only the past effort to protect this animal, but also how easily it can be mistaken.

“Stiff measures” for a mistake “easily” made seems counterintuitive to me. Stiff measures should be employed where there was negligence not an honest mistake. I’m no biologist but I’d guess that scaring away predator hunters in the wolves habitat would have an adverse affect on the population.

 

[nexus]

Okay, did a little searching on Google - here is a summary of the Court's ruling.
Court Rules DOJ Enforcement Directive Arbitrary and Capricious | Energy & Environmental Law Blog

The secondary motion filed by WEG hinged on the hunter's responsibility to know what he was shooting. The court agreed.

 

[wind gypsy]

The tough one for me is if hunters can't take accountability for what they are shooting, why should the non-hunting public feel it's reasonable to allow us to shoot coyotes?

 

[spike camp]

“Stiff measures” for a mistake “easily” made seems counterintuitive to me. Stiff measures should be employed where there was negligence not an honest mistake. I’m no biologist but I’d guess that scaring away predator hunters in the wolves habitat would have an adverse affect on the population.

I’m assuming there have been some kind of issues that happened with mistaken identity,vague laws, relaxed fines/punishment and no doubt poaching.
I’d also assume these issues are the result of the stiff measures that were being sought.
In order to enforce laws or correct any and all issues with this endangered Wolf, and considering it would be nearly impossible to prove mistaken identity...it seems that an across the board hefty fine and or punishment would force everyone involved to pay very close attention to what they’re shooting at and why.

 

[mtmuley]

The tough one for me is if hunters can't take accountability for what they are shooting, why should the non-hunting public feel it's reasonable to allow us to shoot coyotes?

Yeah. The "I thought it was a big coyote" line of thinking. Prevalent in Utah. mtmuley

 

[realunlucky]

Yeah. The "I thought it was a big coyote" line of thinking. Prevalent in Utah. mtmuley

Hey we have to try and collect the $25 bounty for the bigger coyotes here too.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

[Beendare]

Doesnt bother nexus that the F&G gets dragged through the courts for over 3 years on this silliness sucking up $$ and resources.

Truth .... ugh no.... its all about billable hours for these leeches.... if you have been a party to a lawsuit, you know.

Bothers me these lawyers will stoop that low for a paycheck.

Again whose side you on?

I look forward to the day the US wises up and requires the looser in these frivolous lawsuits to pay all court costs. This has the added benefit of putting a bunch of boot licker atty’s out of business.

Getting to the truth....what a crock. Its about BILLABLE HOURS for some of these parasites.

My buddy volunteers a % of his hours to fight these anti hunters.... so there are a few good guys out there.

 

[Shrek]

Doesnt bother nexus that the F&G gets dragged through the courts for over 3 years on this silliness sucking up $$ and resources.

Truth .... ugh no.... its all about billable hours for these leeches.... if you have been a party to a lawsuit, you know.

Bothers me these lawyers will stoop that low for a paycheck.

Again whose side you on?

I look forward to the day the US wises up and requires the looser in these frivolous lawsuits to pay all court costs. This has the added benefit of putting a bunch of boot licker atty’s out of business.

Getting to the truth....what a crock. Its about BILLABLE HOURS for some of these parasites.

My buddy volunteers a % of his hours to fight these anti hunters.... so there are a few good guys out there.

It’s not just about billable hours that will be billed to the the environmentalists and anti hunting organizations it’s the scam of running up huge hours that we the people pay. The Equal Access to Justice act has become a SJW stalking horse and their big money maker. The solution to all these lawsuits is to repeal the Equal Access to Justice act. As it is now they get paid win or lose.

 

[nexus]

Doesnt bother nexus that the F&G gets dragged through the courts for over 3 years on this silliness sucking up $$ and resources.

Truth .... ugh no.... its all about billable hours for these leeches.... if you have been a party to a lawsuit, you know.

Bothers me these lawyers will stoop that low for a paycheck.

Again whose side you on?

I look forward to the day the US wises up and requires the looser in these frivolous lawsuits to pay all court costs. This has the added benefit of putting a bunch of boot licker atty’s out of business.

Getting to the truth....what a crock. Its about BILLABLE HOURS for some of these parasites.

My buddy volunteers a % of his hours to fight these anti hunters.... so there are a few good guys out there.

I have asked you for links or sources about the mandatory sentencing provisions you have talked about repeatedly in this thread on this site and others. For you to make an assumption about what bothers me in the above post is straight up obfuscating the presentation of the requested sources.

As for resources, the lawsuit that was cited, and that I provided a link to for your review, was filed by WEG against the Department of Justice (not F&G). The DOJ attorneys are actually not hourly employees, they are full time government employees. We pay those attorneys one way or another to perform exactly the job they performed in this case - represent the people of the United States for the clarification of existing and new laws. Please send any information you have regarding who paid WEG's attorneys. I did not find any indication that DOJ, F&G or taxpayers paid any of WEG's attorneys. Also, if you have additional sources that show the F&G was actually providing legal support and resources, please post a link, I would love to read about their efforts.

As for sides, show the materials about mandatory sentencing and the attorney fees for WEG and I guess I would then be on your side. I have actually never said I was not on your side; I have only asked for proof of your statements as I could not find any.

While I agree that the likely goal of an organization like WEG is to establish a way of tagging the hunting community, they clearly demonstrated to the court that the existing application of the law (ESA) was not being applied by the DOJ evenly and fairly (as written under the McKinney ruling). This includes the enforcement of FINES AND/OR JAIL TIME by the DOJ under the CURRENT ESA laws even for accidental harming of an endangered species. As an American and hunter, I would tend to agree with this finding - there is a real problem with people hiding behind ignorance instead of taking responsibility for their actions in life and in the field. These same type of people talk a big game until they or their interests are under scrutiny. Hypocritical People - Conservative and Liberal....

Under the your "loser pays fees" scenario - the US Taxpayer would have had to pay WEG's costs. DOJ lost.

Lastly, thank your friend for his volunteer efforts to assist the preservation of our collective hunting rights.

Proceed....