What's up with the point burning in CO?

[topher89]

Kind of a question, kind of a vent.

For the last 5 years (as long as I have been hunting), I have been able to put in the same deer application every year, 4th season as the first choice and 3rd as the second for our particular area. Basically, I could alternate drawing 3rd or 4th each year. Get a 3rd season tag and point one year, draw a 4th the next.

Well, the increase in applications this year changed that. 4th now takes at least 2 points and 3rd is no longer guaranteed as a second choice. No change in tag numbers for this area either.

Looking at the stats is crazy to me. For both 3rd and 4th, there are multiple people burning 5+ points. This is not a trophy unit and it can be pretty packed.

Looking at some other tags, I see the same thing. Tags that could be drawn with 1 or 2 points have guys during tons of points.

Are people getting sick of building points and just burning them? Why blow that many points on easy to draw units?

 

[camping1601]

Dumped mine two years ago and shot a cow with the ML. I got tired of hunting otc archery when I could hunt a MUCH BETTER unit with one point.
I could see the writing on the wall and got out!

 

[elkduds]

I suspect their crystal ball shows NR point creep becoming point leap w cheap application fees. Resident tags too, though less so. The game has totally changed.

 

[topher89]

Dumped mine two years ago and shot a cow with the ML. I got tired of hunting otc archery when I could hunt a MUCH BETTER unit with one point.
I could see the writing on the wall and got out!

I definitely get that but my question is why burn 5-10 points on a 1 or 2 point unit when you could spend them on a unit that is in the 5-10 range? I understand you may 'lose' a point or two but why lose 4-6?

 

[topher89]

I suspect their crystal ball shows NR point creep becoming point leap w cheap application fees. Resident tags too, though less so. The game has totally changed.

Yes it has.

I ended up with a 3rd choice doe tag. I enjoy the hunt and I really enjoy the meat so I am just happy to be able to get out.

 

[camping1601]

In my case I knew the unit from a few years of archery. I'm just really weak and shot a cow within hours of my ML start.

I watched Elk for five years with no one hunting them and couldn't take any longer.

 

[Gatorgrizz27]

I’ll admit I don’t fully understand how the points system works in regards to hunt choices. Is it possible these guys have been trying to draw a reasonable unit, thinking every time that “this is the year”, then get fed up with not being drawn and decide to pick an easier choice to go hunting?

For example, if you know the unit you want to hunt requires 5 points to draw, you might as well just buy a preference point. But if you have 3 or 4 points, put a unit that requires 5 as your first choice, then a unit that requires 1 as your second choice, won’t you end up drawing your second choice and losing your points?

I realize they could just get an OTC tag but many areas don’t offer gun options during the rut without a draw.

Again, I might be wrong, but it seems like you should be able to buy preference points for the trophy/hard to draw units, then apply for the easier units without using any preference points, and if you draw the easier unit you keep your points. If you don’t draw, you don’t get any points.

 

[Bl704]

The lower cost of entry radically increased demand on tags.

 

[Bulldawg]

I think what is more likely is some guys have just been getting points and either planning to hunt that unit or just getting points, then when they decided they had the time or were going to make the time they cashed in the points. Kind of the situation I was in, I had 9 points, and this was the year I could go so I cashed them in on a unit that took 6-7 points. Just happens, demand outweighs the supply and that will start happening to all units more and more, just the way that it is. That's probably the one of the few good things about OTC hunts, opportunity is always there.

 

[Back Country Hunter 2]

For example, if you know the unit you want to hunt requires 5 points to draw, you might as well just buy a preference point. But if you have 3 or 4 points, put a unit that requires 5 as your first choice, then a unit that requires 1 as your second choice, won’t you end up drawing your second choice and losing your points?

If you draw your second choice then you do not lose your points.

 

[Bulldawg]

I also don't see it as "wasting" points, you're using points to go hunt, not wasting them. Acquiring points doesn't hardly cost anything so using them when you have the time is just what you do. I don't like the thought process that using 10 points on a 5 point unit is wasting, just like I don't like it when some dudes criticize somebody for drawing a "trophy" tag, then shooting what somebody might think is sub par. So what if someone draws a unit 9 Arizona early rifle elk tag, and goes and shoots the first 6 point bull that he see's, he didn't take anything away from anybody else so get after it man!

 

[WoodBow]

In my case, I was seeing good deer when elk hunting every year in a 1 point deer unit. So I said screwed it and burned 4 points to chase deer this year. I was still a lot of years away from a good unit as a NR. Decided I would rather hunt deer every other year in a unit that I am familiar with.

 

[topher89]

I also don't see it as "wasting" points, you're using points to go hunt, not wasting them. Acquiring points doesn't hardly cost anything so using them when you have the time is just what you do. I don't like the thought process that using 10 points on a 5 point unit is wasting, just like I don't like it when some dudes criticize somebody for drawing a "trophy" tag, then shooting what somebody might think is sub par. So what if someone draws a unit 9 Arizona early rifle elk tag, and goes and shoots the first 6 point bull that he see's, he didn't take anything away from anybody else so get after it man!

I agree with you. I more mean 'wasting' in terms of time, not quality of the hunt or animal. If you have 8 points, it means you have taken 8 years to build those points. Maybe people are just building points without much of a strategy for a particular place or tag

 

[ericF]

This isn't a recent phenomena. go back every year and you will find 0 or 1 point tags that people with 10+ points put in for. It could be any number of reasons why people have decided to exit the points game, but it happens every year.

 

[wooduckman]

I guess I fell into that camp this year. I used 7 elk points on a tag that typically takes 3-4. My thought was that I know the unit extremely well and have seen a lot of big bulls. So rather than using my points on a new unit I'd have to learn, I'm getting to hunt a unit I'm familiar with and have a decent chance at a nice bull.

 

[Back Country Hunter 2]

Maybe people are just building points without much of a strategy for a particular place or tag

Possibly. Or they have a strategy and point creep is ruining that strategy. Then they just want to go hunting so they burn their points on a unit that they are guaranteed to draw.

 

[Hoot]

the other thing is there are not much in the way of "mid-tier" units that require 5-10 points, when guys get that high and realize they have no shot of catching the top end units, they have little choice but to burn their points on lower tiered units..

In my case, I have 6 points, and intended on using them on a 1 point unit, but kids and work, and a nightmare of a new house build/staying with family while all my gear was in storage, etc. Here I sit with 6 points and I'm not sure if I want to burn them on my original 1 point unit (now 2) or try to draw another popular unit, which will likely take me another two years of points building before I'm in the running for the tag...

 

[RallySquirrel]

I read (I beleive on the forum) that there was a 125% increase in the amount of PP purchased this year. Now, don't take that as gospel becuase I did not verify it but what the heck does that mean moving forward? That could turn into a 125% increase in hunting pressure. I do not believe that will happen due to some attrition but I do believe it means that there are a whole lot more folks getting involved in elk hunting. It has already been detailed that the populations is going the wrong direction for a number of reasons. If they continue to limit tags and we see a healthy increase in those applying for tags, how may points will it take to draw in the next 5 years?

I know our group is sitting on 3 and planning a hunt in 2020 in a 3-4 pp unit. We have discussed whether it will even be worth it to start building points after we burn our next set. I mean, we are talking about a possible hunt in 2025-26 at this rate. Granted we are NR so this applies differently for residents. If we decide to go strictly OTC, like I believe many like us will do, how long is it before the CDW is forced to start closing OTC and changing them to PP units?

Personally, I see this new PP strategy as step one to raising the price of tags. Once they got you hooked, what the heck can you do? I imagine CO tags will jump into the $800 range in the very near future.

I keep seeing images of a monkey and a football....

 

[Gatorgrizz27]

I read (I beleive on the forum) that there was a 125% increase in the amount of PP purchased this year. Now, don't take that as gospel becuase I did not verify it but what the heck does that mean moving forward? That could turn into a 125% increase in hunting pressure. I do not believe that will happen due to some attrition but I do believe it means that there are a whole lot more folks getting involved in elk hunting. It has already been detailed that the populations is going the wrong direction for a number of reasons. If they continue to limit tags and we see a healthy increase in those applying for tags, how may points will it take to draw in the next 5 years?

I know our group is sitting on 3 and planning a hunt in 2020 in a 3-4 pp unit. We have discussed whether it will even be worth it to start building points after we burn our next set. I mean, we are talking about a possible hunt in 2025-26 at this rate. Granted we are NR so this applies differently for residents. If we decide to go strictly OTC, like I believe many like us will do, how long is it before the CDW is forced to start closing OTC and changing them to PP units?

Personally, I see this new PP strategy as step one to raising the price of tags. Once they got you hooked, what the heck can you do? I imagine CO tags will jump into the $800 range in the very near future.

I keep seeing images of a monkey and a football....

I agree and it’s a bummer. On one hand it could be a “fad” driven by YouTube stars like duck hunting has been in the past. Some guys will go out there, get their asses kicked, and not ever go back. I’ve finally gotten to the point at 30 and with my business doing well that I can spend the time and $ to do some western hunts. It’s still going to be a $2,000 proposition, DIY on public land, as the guy I’m going with can’t take the time to drive. $500 tag, $500 flight with a checked bag each way, $500 for 1/2 a truck rental and gas for 9 days, and hopefully $500 to process an elk and ship the meat home.

For the guy who wants to hunt every year, it makes more sense to pick an easier to draw unit and learn it well rather than waiting and waiting for a shot at a “premium” unit. I’d rather go in with lower odds and more experience than the other way around, any day of the week.

 

[Gatorgrizz27]

If you draw your second choice then you do not lose your points.

Thanks. All of our draw hunts here where preference points are awarded are just a single hunt. The ones that allow you 1-4 choices award no preference points.