300 RUM vs 7MM Rem or 28 Nosler

[Jordan Smith]

Then what is needed is a higher round count during practice, which means that less cost, less recoil, and higher BC bullets make even more sense.

 

[Ryan Avery]

Then what is needed is a higher round count during practice, which means that less cost, less recoil, and higher BC bullets make even more sense.

And bad shots are still going to happen.

You have never made a bad long range shot on an animal?

 

[Jordan Smith]

I can honestly say that I have not made a bad first-round hit on an animal at long range. I've missed a close shot or two, but all my long shots have been deliberate, and hit where they were supposed to. I don't take them unless I reasonably sure I'll hit where I want to. The only exception was a bad follow-up shot on a running elk at ~600 meters, after I had hit it well with the first shot while stationary. The third shot, another running shot, anchored it. Ironically, my hunting partner made a marginal liver shot with his .300WM and 208AM at the same distance within a few seconds of my elk going down. We had to chase that elk for a while, and in the end, a 7mm 162AM ended its day at ~860 meters. While anecdotal and a single sample, it goes to show that a bigger bullet doesn't make up for putting it in the right place.

Either way, a bad shot is a bad shot. Between my own hunting as well as guiding others, I've witnessed some bad shots with small guns and bad shots with cannons. None of those animals went down as quickly as those shot in the right place with even the small bullets. I have a hard time buying the notion that a few thou of bullet diameter between a 195gr 7mm bullet and a 215gr .308" bullet, will make the difference and will turn a poorly hit animal into one that goes down quickly.

I'd sooner have the increased margin of wind-calling error that the high-BC 195gr Hybrid or 180gr ELD offer, making a good hit that much more likely, than a perceived advantage in killing effectiveness when the bullet doesn't go where it's supposed to. IME no bullet works well when it hits the guts or blows a leg off.

But what do I know- I use a .243AI as my LR deer rifle, and am totally comfortable using a 7-08 on moose or elk, so clearly I'm not a "you need a big boomer to kill stuff" kind of guy.

 

[FURMAN]

I can honestly say that I have not made a bad first-round hit on an animal at long range. I've missed a close shot or two, but all my long shots have been deliberate, and hit where they were supposed to. I don't take them unless I reasonably sure I'll hit where I want to. The only exception was a bad follow-up shot on a running elk at ~600 meters, after I had hit it well with the first shot while stationary. The third shot, another running shot, anchored it. Ironically, my hunting partner made a marginal liver shot with his .300WM and 208AM at the same distance within a few seconds of my elk going down. We had to chase that elk for a while, and in the end, a 7mm 162AM ended its day at ~860 meters. While anecdotal and a single sample, it goes to show that a bigger bullet doesn't make up for putting it in the right place.

Either way, a bad shot is a bad shot. Between my own hunting as well as guiding others, I've witnessed some bad shots with small guns and bad shots with cannons. None of those animals went down as quickly as those shot in the right place with even the small bullets. I have a hard time buying the notion that a few thou of bullet diameter between a 195gr 7mm bullet and a 215gr .308" bullet, will make the difference and will turn a poorly hit animal into one that goes down quickly.

I'd sooner have the increased margin of wind-calling error that the high-BC 195gr Hybrid or 180gr ELD offer, making a good hit that much more likely, than a perceived advantage in killing effectiveness when the bullet doesn't go where it's supposed to. IME no bullet works well when it hits the guts or blows a leg off.

But what do I know- I use a .243AI as my LR deer rifle, and am totally comfortable using a 7-08 on moose or elk, so clearly I'm not a "you need a big boomer to kill stuff" kind of guy.

It is your money so you can do what you wish but you are being foolish if you want to discount what Jeff has found with far more non anecdotal evidence in one year than most of us could wish for in a life time. I most likely will always have a big 7 and a 30 cal in my cabinet. No one would argue that shot placement trumps all. I am not sure where you hunt but where I hunt if an animal makes it out of sight recovery chances decrease exponentially. Jeff made no claims other than he has repeatedly witnessed animals going down quicker with a 215 Berger than 180s and the 195s. You do not have to "buy" it. It will not change what he has witnessed.

 

[Jordan Smith]

Nobody discounted what Jeff has seen. I simply wonder if what seems to be an anti-7mm bias has influenced his observations at all. And yes, until we have controlled conditions, measurements, numbers, and empirical data, it's all anecdotal. Respectfully to Jeff, there are many other people who guide, or manage depredation culls, and that also see high volumes of animals die. Nobody has a monopoly on this stuff.

 

[Ryan Avery]

It seems you comparing apples to oranges. Are you using a 7-08 for long range hunting on elk and moose? How many have you shot past 600 yards?

You are correct your LR sample size seems very small.

If you follow Jeffs work he really wanted the 7-300 to work with the 195. In his opinion, it did not work as well as a big 30.

Would you please post a link to these other people that have documented their LR shots on elk?

I am not trying to be a dick here, I really like reading about this kind of stuff.

I also built two 28 Noslers and a 7RM this year to try for the first time. I am a big fan of the 300 RUM and 338 Lapua and wanted to see if the .284 caliber is as efficient at killing elk at LR.

 

[Jordan Smith]

It seems you comparing apples to oranges. Are you using a 7-08 for long range hunting on elk and moose? How many have you shot past 600 yards?

You are correct your LR sample size seems very small.

If you follow Jeffs work he really wanted the 7-300 to work with the 195. In his opinion, it did not work as well as a big 30.

Would you please post a link to these other people that have documented their LR shots on elk?

I am not trying to be a dick here, I really like reading about this kind of stuff.

I also built two 28 Noslers and a 7RM this year to try for the first time. I am a big fan of the 300 RUM and 338 Lapua and wanted to see if the .284 caliber is as efficient at killing elk at LR.

To start at the start, when shooting animals near or far, the only terminal performance-related difference is impact velocity. Yes, I use the 7-08 on elk and moose, and whether it is close or far doesn't matter. The 7-08 at 300 yards kills like a 7RM a few hundred yards further downrange. The 7-08 at 600 terminally performs like the 7RM at 900, etc. The bullet arriving with a certain impact velocity is all that really matters. I mentioned the 7-08 and .243 simply to point out that different people's "requirements" for killing power/wound channel size/tissue damage vary with the individual. There is always a bigger bullet, and always a guy whose experience leads him to believe it gives him an advantage over smaller bullets. All of us have to determine where our personal line in the sand is drawn, where "enough is enough". I could argue that a .375 CT kills elk more authoritatively than a .300WM, and I doubt many would argue, but the .375 CT is likely beyond "the line in the sand" that most guys decide on.

I've shot a bunch of critters beyond 600 yards, and for you to assume that the sample size is small is somewhat narrow-minded. You honestly don't know a thing about my background. I have worked professionally as a guide, hunted a bunch for myself, and continue to guide friends and family. I compete in the local PRS league, and my preferred hunting style reflects that.

I said that there are many others who see a lot of animals die, I didn't qualify that statement by specifying "LR shots on elk". I know a guy who manages a deer depredation hunt in the southern US and sees hundreds of deer killed every year, near and far. I personally have worked as a guide and know other guides and outfitters that have seen a lot of critters hit the dirt. Look up JJHACK, who has been an African PH for many years, and has witnessed untold numbers of animals die. From a background entrenched in the scientific method, and while I respect Jeff, his work, his observations, etc, his reports and opinions are anecdotal, to my knowledge. I've not seen any tallies of distances ran after the shot with various bullets and various shots distances, nor measurements of wound channels, time between bullet strike and animal expiration, documentation with data, etc. All I'm really saying is that Jeff represents one man's opinion, based on quite a bit of observation. Others with similar quantities of observation and experience may have completely different opinions. If you want to read about high-volume culling involving LR shooting, search YouTube for New Zealand goat hunts. No limit on goats over there, and a lot of open, mountainous terrain.

 

[Ryan Avery]

I'm not trying to insult you. That's why I am asking these questions.

You're the one making the case for the .284 I am just asking about your firsthand LR experience with it on animals. I have zero experience with a .284 outside of a wolf and bear shot at close range within the last month.

It's easy for people to regurgitate information on forums, it's hard to get first hand experience.




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[Jordan Smith]

No offense taken. You asked about sample size and experience, so I tried to give some context and background. That's not to take anything away from Jeff's experience or opinions, either.

Easy to regurgitate, you got that right. It's rampant these days.

 

[starsky]

I'll stick with the 7mag and 180 combo because I can shoot that better from more field conditions than I can a big 30. A couple elk in the past few years seem to be impressed enough with it... YMMV. FYI. FWIW. etc, etc, etc....

 

[Ryan Avery]

I'll stick with the 7mag and 180 combo because I can shoot that better from more field conditions than I can a big 30. A couple elk in the past few years seem to be impressed enough with it... YMMV. FYI. FWIW. etc, etc, etc....

How far were the shots?


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[GKPrice]

Equally respectfully, with a sig line like that, I have to question whether your apparent bias has influenced your observations

Having been in positions such as Jeff describes, albeit a lot less animals, there is probably a point being missed here that is very relevant - Overseeing 3 elk kills in one evening can make the term "tired" take on an entirely new meaning, in particular if the energy, time and consternation of worrying about what you're gonna find when you reach the animal 800 +/- yds away is added - The differences between 7mm and .30 (or .338) may well be personified beyond expectations in those circumstances and having experienced those "special moments" I will agree with Jeff - I'm sure a 338 Lapua would lend itself to the same comparisons IF it was as "shootable" and as common, but it's not - I've got the solution: just hit every elk high in the shoulder and take out that front piece of backstrap, it's tough anyway, problem solved .....

 

[Jordan Smith]

Having been in positions such as Jeff describes, albeit a lot less animals, there is probably a point being missed here that is very relevant - Overseeing 3 elk kills in one evening can make the term "tired" take on an entirely new meaning, in particular if the energy, time and consternation of worrying about what you're gonna find when you reach the animal 800 +/- yds away is added

Agreed. Been there and done that. There was no significant difference in the amount of time it took the various elk to expire between the 7mm's and .300's that I could attribute to bullet or chambering. Shot placement, however, yes.

- The differences between 7mm and .30 (or .338) may well be personified beyond expectations in those circumstances and having experienced those "special moments" I will agree with Jeff - I'm sure a 338 Lapua would lend itself to the same comparisons IF it was as "shootable" and as common, but it's not - I've got the solution: just hit every elk high in the shoulder and take out that front piece of backstrap, it's tough anyway, problem solved .....

You're right, the .338LM isn't as shootable as the .300WM, and the .300WM isn't as shootable as the 7RM. This whole cartridge/bullet debate is just one big sliding continuum, and each person needs to decide for themselves which compromise between terminal performance/tissue damage, shootability, and external ballistics is right for them.

 

[Ryan Avery]

Let's be honest we are not hitting the high shoulder on every 800 yard shot, especially in hunting situations. I put well over 1200 rounds on a 825 yard target last year. Some days you're good, some days you suck.

The 300 win with a good brake is VERY shootable. Hell, a 338 with a good brake is very shootable.

But Jordan is right each shooter will have different uses for their rifle and they should also know their limitations.


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[LaGriz]

The theme of this thread makes me believe my logic is on target.

I will be looking to kill a bull this fall with my 338-06 built on a pre-64 M70 action. It's going to be my 1st rifle hunt in good while. The re-bored M70 groups a 200 grain AB (2800 fps) well enough to give me confidence. My 3 previous kills have been with a .280 rem and 160 grain fail safe load. All shots were close, one being a one-shot-kill while two required a follow up shot(s) that ended suffering, but may not have been needed. I was following the rule of "if still standing...hit them again if you can." Have since made some good shots on deer with the same .280 (160 gr. AccuBond) that took the animals cleanly but sometimes failed to exit. The reason I when with the 338-06 is I wanted a bigger bullet (hammer) for that extra margin of lethality on a marginal shot. The performance of this caliber is very close to that of a 338 WM with slightly less recoil. I know I must do my part, as shot placement is always key. I find the rifle to be shoot-able without a muzzle brake. I do love the model 70 and I have always wanted a rifle in this chambering. Looking forward to fall!

LaGriz

 

[luke moffat]

The theme of this thread makes me believe my logic is on target.

I will be looking to kill a bull this fall with my 338-06 built on a pre-64 M70 action. It's going to be my 1st rifle hunt in good while. The re-bored M70 groups a 200 grain AB (2800 fps) well enough to give me confidence. My 3 previous kills have been with a .280 rem and 160 grain fail safe load. All shots were close, one being a one-shot-kill while two required a follow up shot(s) that ended suffering, but may not have been needed. I was following the rule of "if still standing...hit them again if you can." Have since made some good shots on deer with the same .280 (160 gr. AccuBond) that took the animals cleanly but sometimes failed to exit. The reason I when with the 338-06 is I wanted a bigger bullet (hammer) for that extra margin of lethality on a marginal shot. The performance of this caliber is very close to that of a 338 WM with slightly less recoil. I know I must do my part, as shot placement is always key. I find the rifle to be shoot-able without a muzzle brake. I do love the model 70 and I have always wanted a rifle in this chambering. Looking forward to fall!

LaGriz

How far are you talking about using your 338-06. I have one and really like it with 210 Sciroccos (BC .500+) at 2830 fps but I don't exactly consider that a long range load like these guys are talking about at 700+ yards and such.

 

[starsky]

How far were the shots?


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525, 375, 700, 550. Last 3 years worth...

 

[Ryan Avery]

525, 375, 700, 550. Last 3 years worth...

Bergers?

What was the average distance traveled after they where shot? (ELK)

 

[starsky]

Bergers?

What was the average distance traveled after they where shot? (ELK)

Scenars. Average they traveled under their own power: about 20 yards. Edit to add: 3 bulls, 1 cow. (a couple rolled down hill, dead.)

Those are for elk. Large bodied mule deer bucks at roughly the same distance dropped where they were standing. (rolling downhill afterwards)

 

[Matt Cashell]

These discussions are always interesting.

Jeff has a lot of experience in watching elk die, and I have no reason to doubt him when he says that elk seem to die more quickly with larger calibers. That makes sense. It also makes sense that the advantage of larger calibers increases at longer and longer distances.

However, the OP in this resurrected thread was asking if a 7RM would be sufficient for elk out to 600-700 yards. It certainly is. A bigger caliber may give additional "wiggle room" on shot placement, but the 7RM has proved sufficient for me and many other hunters at the OP's distances and closer for elk.

When I hit the woods for elk and moose this fall, I will be carrying a rifle chambered in 7RM.