300 RUM vs 7MM Rem or 28 Nosler

[Jordan Smith]

Come on now Jordan; I thought you wanted an intelligent conversation. Show me a 10 pound 50 cal that you can shoot?? On the other hand, a 10 pound 338 is very doable.

I also disagree with you about elk. Outside of goats, they are arguably the toughest animal in North America.

I will also answer for Broz. If you went out and validated the Hornady 180 match you would see there BC is way lower than their posted .796 BC. I've tested this with a 7RM and a 28 Nosler. Although If I were going to stay with the 28 for elk, The 180 Match would be the bullet I would test next. Its been nasty on the two deer we shot with them.

I've had two 300 Rums with 26-inch barrels that shot 230 Bergers at or better than 3100 fps. Both had long throats with a coal of 3.85. I guess you will say I was way overpressure... Maybe but the brass gave me no indication of that. I have another one being build as we speak and will post up a video on the speed over a Chrono. But you can search around google and find several other credible people getting the same result.

You just spout out numbers and options with minimal or zero long-range field time with the caliber, bullets or animal that I am talking about.

Who said a rifle needs to be limited to 10 lbs to kill game at LR? That's a limitation you're imposing on everyone. Some people don't need to haul their rifles very far to shoot elk at LR.

I have validated the 180, and it matches up very close to the 0.796 advertised, IME.

You seem intent on slinging personal attacks, when you yourself admitted to forming a firm opinion of the 28 Nos after only a few elk kills.

We'll have to agree to disagree, but you should recognize that you two fellas aren't the only guys on the planet that have killed critters and formed opinions, and not everybody thinks that .308" is God's caliber.

 

[Jordan Smith]

There are plenty of 300 RUM / 230 Bereger combos out there running 3200 or either side of it. I have a new 300 rum and another being built, plus I have owned 300 rums before along with 30-378's 30 Lapua's and Lapua AI's. All data I post is from real experiences.

A good reamer puts QL in the dark ages and we all know QL always errors way on the safe side.

For example, to show not only my data. This is the load data from Jett's rifle. Jett is a very good friend of mine.

As always work up on charge weights and remember custom reamers make all rifles different.


"92 Grains of N570
230 Bergers
40 thousandths off the lands
CCI 250
2nd firing on brass
3165 FPS
Single digit ES and less than 1/2 MOA
Rifle by Dan's Custom Gun Service

I actually ran it past 3200 without pressure but backed it down to 3165 cause it just didn't seem fair."





Warner flat line 30 cal 198 gr bullets have a G1 BC of .855 and there are plenty of 30's out there in this category. I can't wait to see how fast a well built BIG 30 can push these suckers. What ya think? 3300? 3400? 3500?

All I have posted , both opinion or factual is backed up by real world experience. Take it or leave it. I have helped 100's of hunters and shooter and I have never had one that was not grateful for my shared data / info. Anyone can shoot what they want, and it will not bother me one bit. You should shoot what you want. But for the ones that want true field experiences to help with a decision, these are the hunters and shooters I share my data for. Take it or leave it, it is all shared for the love of the sport.

Broz,

Respectfully, I do not doubt that you hit 3200 fps with the 230. What I question is at what pressure you're running to get there. You're right, with custom reamer specs, nobody knows for sure if you're running within the SAAMI max pressure limit of the chambering unless you've had your load and rifle pressure tested. And that's a good question- if you've had it tested with a Pressure Trace or Peizo equipment, what pressure do your loads generate? Conventional brass pressure signs don't often show up until you're in the mid-70k psi range, so that doesn't tell us a whole lot. And at that rate, we could also run custom reamers and very high pressures with 7mm chamberings to even the odds, so it makes sense to compare apples to apples by using SAAMI chamber specs and pressure ratings. Within those parameters, QL has been quite accurate in predicting velocity with given powder charge weights, IME.

I also thought it was understood that I was talking about mass-produced bullets that are suitable for killing game, when I mentioned no .308" bullet with a BC that matches the 195 Berger, since we're talking about hunting here. I still haven't seen one.

As you said, this is all fun and games, and I hope nobody takes offense or views it as a personal attack when I speak to the other side of the coin.

 

[Broz]

The 7mm 180 ELD has a BC of 0.796 and can be launched from a lowly 7WSM at about 3200 fps

and this post of yours is 100% SAAMI spec.

edit to add:

also thought it was understood that I was talking about mass-produced bullets that are suitable for killing game, when I mentioned no .308" bullet with a BC that matches the 195 Berger, since we're talking about hunting here.

so it is ok for you to post data for the 180 ELD M ( ELD® Match (Extremely Low Drag Match) bullets are technologically advanced, enhanced accuracy target bullets)

But I was out of line posting the 198 Warner flat line with a BC of .855

Ok I see.

Good day, I am done.

 

[Jordan Smith]

and this post of yours is 100% SAAMI spec.

Good day, I am done.

Yes. 30" barrel.

Have a good evening, I've also had enough.

EDIT: You must see the difference between shooting game animals with a tipped, expanding bullet like the ELD, and a solid, non-expanding bullet like the Flatline...

 

[luke moffat]

So when I do re barrel from a 7 WSM to a 308 win do I need to worry about the fact I will drop below the berger suggested impact velocity of 1800 fps around 450 yards or is that more of a "guideline" than a rule?

Just trying to wrap my head around why a 215 Berger works so well. Excited to go back to less powder and recoil than the 7 WSM and easier to find brass for sure. Just concerned about impact velocity at range.

 

[Broz]

So when I do re barrel from a 7 WSM to a 308 win do I need to worry about the fact I will drop below the berger suggested impact velocity of 1800 fps around 450 yards or is that more of a "guideline" than a rule?

Just trying to wrap my head around why a 215 Berger works so well. Excited to go back to less powder and recoil than the 7 WSM and easier to find brass for sure. Just concerned about impact velocity at range.

Luke what velocity do you get with 180's in the WSM? I have little to no experience with this round. I do know that with a 30" tube and a 7-300 win mag we got 3200 if we pushed it to max. But the load was showing pressure. I want to distinguish if the 180 / 3200 load can be had? I know barrel length would be worth about 22 fps per inch.

The thing many miss is what velocity can actually be had with the 215 due to its short bearing surface. For example, in the same rifle for me the 215 was 50 fps faster than the 210 vld. I have seen the 215 expand below 1700 on antelope. That said I would not want to test to see how low I could go on larger animals.

Edit: Luke, my friends max load for the 215 from his 26" 308 produces a MV of 2660 fps. YMMV

Jeff

 

[Broz]

Some in this thread wanted to offer that the 7mm have superior external ballistics than the the 30. I offered it wan no true. I still feel that way. The type and construction of the bullet was not a topic, until I offered the design and drag models of 30 cal bullets with way higher BC than the 7mm. Then this was not ok. Even though the discussion was based much around the 230 Berger OTM, 230 Berger Hybrid Target and the 180 Hornady ELD all three of which are indeed rated as target bullets. This specific portion of the discussion was about external ballistics. But Mr. Smith does not feel I should offer data for one of the 30 cal bullets with the best external Ballistics, I guess that was only for the 7mm. External ballistics aid in point of impact. Do I feel if feel, if I wanted to drive a 198 gr Flatline with a .855 bc from a 300 RUM with a mv of 3250 plus fps through both front shoulders of an elk it would kill it? Yes I 100% do. And since we were talking about putting animals down quickest. I would take that shot to anchor one over the same shot with any 7mm bullet.

Jeff

 

[mtnwrunner]

Thanks for the info fellas.

Randy

 

[Broz]

Just to offer I am not blowing smoke and share a little about what I do and know in the world of external Ballistics. Here is a picture of a rifle we finished this week. This is my new 375 ELR. A case I designed myself with a capacity of 170 +- grains. The bullets shown are 427 gr Cutting Edge M TAC's and 400 gr Cutting Edge Lasers. The 6.5 CreedMoor is there for size comparison loaded with the 155 gr Berger bullet I am testing for Berger / Namo. The 375 ELR will send a 400 gr bullet in the 3100 fps range and will be used on targets out to and maybe beyond 3 miles. This rifle is entered in the ERL Central World Record Match Jan 21st in Parhump NV right before Shot Show 2018. I will be the shooter. I don't expect to see many 7mm's there (even though some feel they have the external ballistic advantage) I only share this to offer I do all these things I share and not just on paper. I want people who read my posts to know my data is real, not a prediction.

Regards
Jeff

 

[Ironman]

Some in this thread wanted to offer that the 7mm have superior external ballistics than the the 30. I offered it wan no true. I still feel that way. The type and construction of the bullet was not a topic, until I offered the design and drag models of 30 cal bullets with way higher BC than the 7mm. Then this was not ok. Even though the discussion was based much around the 230 Berger OTM, 230 Berger Hybrid Target and the 180 Hornady ELD all three of which are indeed rated as target bullets. This specific portion of the discussion was about external ballistics. But Mr. Smith does not feel I should offer data for one of the 30 cal bullets with the best external Ballistics, I guess that was only for the 7mm. External ballistics aid in point of impact. Do I feel if feel, if I wanted to drive a 198 gr Flatline with a .855 bc from a 300 RUM with a mv of 3250 plus fps through both front shoulders of an elk it would kill it? Yes I 100% do. And since we were talking about putting animals down quickest. I would take that shot to anchor one over the same shot with any 7mm bullet.

Jeff

NOBODY ever said that a 7 has better external ballistics than a 30. It was the blanket statement of a 30 killing better. All things equal, that's simply not true. You are the one who started comparing a 215gr. To a 195gr. Your thought was why not use the best bullet for the given caliber. That, in itself, changed the apples to apples comparison. Like Jordan stated, why don't we just change the goal line again and bring a .50 cal into the mix. I respect your opinion on the two calibers and the animals you have seen taken, but we have no clue what bullet was used with ANY of the 7's OR 30's that was used to take these animals. My point being, if a 180gr. Was used in both the 300wm and the 28nos, the elk will be just as dead, and just as quick given the same POI.

For what it's worth, this discussion has changed my mind a lot towards a 28. Just the simple fact of bullets available and existing load data out there for the 300wm, it would be silly for me to have a custom 28 built instead of a 300wm. Thanks for sharing the information.

 

[maninthemaze]

Thank you Broz for posting all of your experiences. I would say that there a lot of people lurking on these threads, like me, that don't have 10 percent of the experience or knowledge and really appreciate your insight.

Funny, my father used to say that the 7mm is ballisticly superior to anything else. I feel that that was before the bigger 30's came out. Maybe as the 30's got longer, their ballistics improved?

Just for reference on the 7wsm. Mine shot the 180 berger hunting vld at 2900 fps with a 24 barrel. That was 64.2 grains of R26. I can't remember what the BTO measurement was, but it was throated long just for the 168/180 Bergers. And I could push the bullet faster, but the accuracy wasn't there.

Thanks again Broz....You too Ryan

Just my 2 cents and worth the price charged.

 

[mtnwrunner]

Just to offer I am not blowing smoke and share a little about what I do and know in the world of external Ballistics. Here is a picture of a rifle we finished this week. This is my new 375 ELR. A case I designed myself with a capacity of 170 +- grains. The bullets shown are 427 gr Cutting Edge M TAC's and 400 gr Cutting Edge Lasers. The 6.5 CreedMoor is there for size comparison loaded with the 155 gr Berger bullet I am testing for Berger / Namo. The 375 ELR will send a 400 gr bullet in the 3100 fps range and will be used on targets out to and maybe beyond 3 miles. This rifle is entered in the ERL Central World Record Match Jan 21st in Parhump NV right before Shot Show 2018. I will be the shooter. I don't expect to see many 7mm's there (even though some feel they have the external ballistic advantage) I only share this to offer I do all these things I share and not just on paper. I want people who read my posts to know my data is real, not a prediction.

Regards
Jeff

Simply.....Bad Ass.

Randy

 

[Broz]

Ironman, My apologizes if I didn't already post this or if you missed it. But when the light went on for me it was during the Management elk hunts I hosted in 2015, on the ranch I manage. I was there for the taking of 78 elk in one season. That was when I was testing several 7mm-300 win mags I built in hopes to replace my 300 win mag with something better. The two main rifles used were very similar. A 28" 7mm-300 win mag with a max load of H-1000 and a 195 Berger with a MV of 2950 fps. The 300 win mag was a 28" also with a 215 Berger over H-1000 and a MV of 3035 fps. Yes, the 215 is a faster bullet with a short bearing surface. If I pushed the 195 any faster, the cases showed pressure. Both rifles optimized to represent the best ballistics for each. Neither was handicapped with lighter for caliber bullets. To me this was the best comparison I could ever do. Over 2 dozen elk were taken with each rifle. Many times the rifles were side by side , same time, with two shooters taking elk from the same herd over our hay field. Same distance, all cows, boom boom. This is where it became very evident to me that the 300 win mag, never , not once, needed a follow up to put them down. The 7-300 did more times than not. I then started calling on others to share data. Many well respected people in the field have seen the same thing. I have also tested similar hunts with the 180 Berger Hunting VLD in the 7-300's. Similar results. 300 kills better / faster. Don't ask me why. It just is what it is. Even though I wanted so much to make the 7-300 (close to the 7 STW and a little smaller than the 28 Nosler) work, it just will not hammer elk like the 30's. And the 338's drop them faster than the 30's do.

I have done studies for terminal performance on bullets for a couple different companies. I field dressed over 50 elk that season and saw the shot placement from the inside out. The 30 simply took the wind out of them faster. The elk shot with the 7's stood longer, walked away ect and needed another to anchor them. Yes they were going to die but when? Shot placement is king, but it was even more evident when the shot placement was a little off the mark that the 300 with a 215 was your friend. It is no wonder why so many using a 300 win mag and a 215 love the combo.

Hope this answers any questions.

Jeff

EDIT to add photo: For proof of the management hunt that took place over the 2015 / 2016 season. Here is a pic of the permission slips / liability wavers hunters signed before I took them in. The folded over portion are all filled out. Some pages are for two or more hunters that hunted together on the same day. ( husband wives / parent children/ etc)

 

[luke moffat]

Jeff,

Honestly the 7 WSM doesn't matter much anymore...its dead to me if I can do better things with the 308 win and 215s as you have seen time and again. We have gotten the 180s up 3200 (3250 with 175 ELDX) in 26" and 27" 7 WSM but at that speed it was easy bolt lift and no other pressure signs other than single shooting the primer pockets when you go to reload them. HAHA so backed them down to 3050-3100 to save the unicorns that are 7 WSM brass.

Regardless of what the 7 WSM can do (maybe can't is a better word ) I have always liked the 308 and you are saying the 215 berger is safe to take down to 1700 fps to still get reliable expansion? If so that is great.


I mean for my uses I saw roughly 10 critters alone this year shot between 400+yards with the 6.5 and it worked great. If I am having to keep my .308 to 500 yards and below with the 215 for it to maintain atleast 1700 fps is that a better route?

Lapua 308 brass should work great and I already have a couple hundred to get me started!!! This should be fun!

 

[Ironman]

Broz, I very well may have missed the explanation on the given rounds used in your cull hunt. I read the thread from the start before I made my first post. Having said that, I would have not commented on this thread had I caught the data given above.

Like I said, you have turned the light on for me as well, and for that, I'm truly grateful. Nothing like dropping a few thousand dollars on a custom that could have been better by choosing a different caliber. As I stated before, I totally respect you knowledge and experience on this subject. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge and keeping me from making an expensive mistake.

 

[Broz]

Luke I just called my friend from Dillon, MT. who builds rifles, participates in elk management etc. He has the 308 running 2660 (max load) with 215's from a 10 twist. He took elk to just over 800 yards with this rifle with great success.

EDIT: Luke, this 308 is very long throated and single fed with the 215 Jammed .020"

Jeff

 

[Broz]

Broz, I very well may have missed the explanation on the given rounds used in your cull hunt. I read the thread from the start before I made my first post. Having said that, I would have not commented on this thread had I caught the data given above.

Like I said, you have turned the light on for me as well, and for that, I'm truly grateful. Nothing like dropping a few thousand dollars on a custom that could have been better by choosing a different caliber. As I stated before, I totally respect you knowledge and experience on this subject. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge and keeping me from making an expensive mistake.

Thank you Sir. Trust me when I say the results are not what I wanted to see. But you can not ignore reality. Ryan knew of my results before he went with the 28 Nos. He saw it for himself with 2 out of 6 elk kills same season. He kept it to himself for a while, but just shared the stories with me a few days ago. It is what it is.

Thanks and good hunting to you.

Jeff

 

[luke moffat]

Luke I just called my friend from Dillon, MT. who builds rifles, participates in elk management etc. He has the 308 running 2660 (max load) with 215's from a 10 twist. He took elk to just over 800 yards with this rifle with great success.

EDIT: Luke, this 308 is very long throated and single fed with the 215 Jammed .020"

Jeff

Good to know that Bergers still expand down to 1650 fps. HAHA why don't they just advertise that!!! Sweet that I will have a 800 yard consistent moose slayer with a 308 and 215 berger then! Impact velocity and bullet design to heck with that nonsense just need a berger 215 to make that .308 hole and good to go. Suck on that 7 WSM with a 175 ELDX that gets there with 50% more speed (2100+ fps @ 800 yards) only to let the elk/moose walk off to go die somewhere else!

 

[wind gypsy]

Some in this thread wanted to offer that the 7mm have superior external ballistics than the the 30. I offered it wan no true. I still feel that way. The type and construction of the bullet was not a topic, until I offered the design and drag models of 30 cal bullets with way higher BC than the 7mm. Then this was not ok. Even though the discussion was based much around the 230 Berger OTM, 230 Berger Hybrid Target and the 180 Hornady ELD all three of which are indeed rated as target bullets. This specific portion of the discussion was about external ballistics. But Mr. Smith does not feel I should offer data for one of the 30 cal bullets with the best external Ballistics, I guess that was only for the 7mm. External ballistics aid in point of impact. Do I feel if feel, if I wanted to drive a 198 gr Flatline with a .855 bc from a 300 RUM with a mv of 3250 plus fps through both front shoulders of an elk it would kill it? Yes I 100% do. And since we were talking about putting animals down quickest. I would take that shot to anchor one over the same shot with any 7mm bullet.

Jeff

Jeff, I believe in your experience but you're showing your bias here. The discussion was based on bullets people actually use for hunting. The Berger's 195 7 mm hunting bullet has a higher BC than any 30 cal bullet Berger makes. The ELD line has higher BC 7s than it does 30s, these are all bullets people actually use on game.

 

[Broz]

Good to know that Bergers still expand down to 1300 fps. HAHA why don't they just advertise that!!!

Berger lists them as "Target bullets" I really don't know how low of a Impact velocity they will still expand on. I know an antelope with a IV of 1650 gad a golf ball exit and went straight down. I would proceed with caution below that and test on smaller game. But that's just me.

Jeff