Need help finding a load for my rifle

OP
maninthemaze
Joined
Aug 20, 2016
Messages
895
I had talked to a guy that Ryan built a gun for and he's using 85 grains of N570 and getting 3140 fps. We should have the same throats, so I was thinking I should start there. Evidently we dont! I'll update the post after I've shot my rounds tomorrow I loaded from 79.8 moving up in .2 increments. Hopefully I'll find a flat spot in there somewhere.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
 
OP
maninthemaze
Joined
Aug 20, 2016
Messages
895
Well, how's this for consistency?

79.8 grains 2976
80.0 grains 3079
80.2 grains 3115
Let cool
80.4 grains 3122
80.6 grains 3115
80.8 grains DA
Let cool
81.0 grains 3023
81.2 grains 3079
81.4 grains 3065
After these shots, with the velocity drop, I noticed my chrono was now in the shade.
81.6 grains 3072
81.8 grains 3167
82.0 grains 3144

I guess I'm neck turning and buying more bushings? And dropping down a couple more grains of powder.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jan 29, 2015
Messages
18
Hello, I'm having a heck of a time finding a load for my new 28 Nosler. I've been chasing huge velocity swings. As an example on Tues I head to the range to shoot some loads. They are as follows

82.5 grains 3072, 3037, 3065, nr
83.5 grains 3129, 3167, 3115, nr
84 grains 3159, 3079, 3086, 3167
84.5 grains 3144, 3144, 3159, 3220
85 grains 3205, 3137, 3115, 3205

Scope rail came loose, so the targets were useless. With 10 inch groups at 400 yards.

Since the lower charge weights looked like better loads I decided to load some smaller charges and go back.

82.6 grains 3159, 3244, 3236, 3220
82.8 grains 3159, 3152, 3100, 3058

Pissed off at the results and a few sticky bolts, I called it quits and headed home. While looking things over I noticed a few issues with the bullets. It was a different box than I had been shooting. But they were the same part number, different lot number though. Either way, I took some measurements. While most of the bullets measured in the middle. I found several that were off. I'm curious if these off bullets could cause pressure and subsequently velocity swings.

Bullet #1 weighs 195 grains and measures 1.612 overall with a .880 BTO
32138c7f77e0312b065b73d1b626fa1e.jpg


Bullet #2 weighs 195 grains and measures 1.646 overall with a .894 BTO
a7bedf0886b2180e5deef17dcdc2a073.jpg



Do you think this could cause velocity swings? Should I sort all the bullets and discard the ones that are way off? Contact Berger? Sorry for the long winded post. But so far everything about this rifle sucks. I should have left it the 14lb 7wsm it was. Thanks

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Am I reading this correctly? You are using factory loads? If so, who knows what you see is pretty much what you get. Start loading your own with Temp sensitive powders like the H1000. Hot weather is a bear on velocities. Is your ammo in direct sun light? Don't give up. This is part of the game, we have all been there. This is how you learn.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Ryan Avery

Admin
Staff member
Joined
Jan 5, 2012
Messages
8,639
Am I reading this correctly? You are using factory loads? If so, who knows what you see is pretty much what you get. Start loading your own with Temp sensitive powders like the H1000. Hot weather is a bear on velocities. Is your ammo in direct sun light? Don't give up. This is part of the game, we have all been there. This is how you learn.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


He is reloading
 
Joined
Jan 29, 2015
Messages
18
Check out Panhandle precision for reloading tips. I was told when I started that if a gun doesn't like a particular bullet to move on to another one. Some guns just won't shoot some bullets. Also, what are you using to capture the velocity? Magneto Speed or an old school Chroni?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
OP
maninthemaze
Joined
Aug 20, 2016
Messages
895
Check out Panhandle precision for reloading tips. I was told when I started that if a gun doesn't like a particular bullet to move on to another one. Some guns just won't shoot some bullets. Also, what are you using to capture the velocity? Magneto Speed or an old school Chroni?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I talked to the smith today and he suggested it was my chrono as well. I've been using a Competition Electronics one. I'll be ordering a magneto speed this payday. He said the CE chrono's were very light sensitive and any change in the light would affect the velocity calculations.

I'm also gonna drop a few more grains and do a ladder test at longer distances and look for horizontal strings. I just have to figure out how to mark the bullet holes without having to drive to the target in between every round. I might use magic marker on the bullets and just use white paper like this guy.

http://www.6mmbr.com/laddertest.html

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
 

ATX762

Lil-Rokslider
Joined
Jun 30, 2017
Messages
115
Location
Austin, TX
Man...I will definitely be interested to hear how you work this out! I think that you def need to rule out a chronograph issue. For sure muzzle blast will F your readings the F up. The only time I can get away with 10 feet on a big volume centerfire rifle is if I'm running a suppressor.

But also if your readings are changing 100 fps between shade and sun...it seems like that is suggesting chrono issue? That to me is the thing to sort out, post haste, before you drive yourself any crazier.

I have only used two chronographs, a cheap shooting crony, which gave me random whack ass readouts once in a while and would have driven me insane if I used it for anything but a basic reference tool...and then I threw that thing in the trash and bought an Ohler. Which, surprise, despite it's $600 price tag still needs some care and love and thought, and still gives me whack-ass readings once in a while, but generally catches its own errors bc it's actually two chronographs in one. The other day when chrono-ing my 35 whelen, the first/second screen gave me several 4,998 fps readouts. Oops. But the second/third screen got it right, about 2650 fps. Why? I don't know. But I managed to collect enough sensible data anyway.

Enough on that. The only bullet related thing that will change velocities that much (at the muzzle) is if you radically changed the weight (which you didn't) or if somehow the bearing surface radically changed (not possible, really). Otherwise, really, at 15 feet from the muzzle, that is not a bullet related issue.

Otherwise, neck tension neck tension neck tension, but you annealed recently. So there you go on that front, sounds like it's sorted.

Then...those chrono readings sort of go up in a sensible fashion, then stabilize and don't really change for a while...despite adding almost a grain of powder? In my limited experience that often means you've hit max for that combo of powder and bullet. When I see those kinds of readings, a linear increase in velocity, followed by adding half a grain and not gaining any velocity, I always stop there unless I've got a shit ton of data that says otherwise.

At any rate, keep us in the loop. Following with interest. My first instinct was neck tension, followed by a chronograph problem, followed by a maybe you've just hit a bullet/powder/case combo that works weird in your gun. Again, in my somewhat limited experience, ES's (low or high) are not always super gun specific, or not as gun-specific as accuracy combos are.
 
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
489
What are you doing about cleaning your gun?

I've found that most 7's like to be fouled out with 5-12 shots and then stay fouled in the "sweet spot" where you should do load development and hunting for anywhere between 20-80 shots. I get almost exactly 50 rounds before my sweet spot ends and I start seeing accuracy loss.


I like the velocity plateau at 80.2-80.6 grains. I would fine tune with 3 rounds each @ 80.2, 80.4 and 80.6. Check velocity spread. Make sure your shooting round robin. Low to high then high to low.

I don't like how you get a drastic velocity drop at 82. Your velocity at 82 grains is vastly different than your original post at 82.2 grains. That makes me think there is an issue with fouling or cleaning that is causing your velocity swings.....just thoughts


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
489
Did you run any cold bore shots prior to running the ladder? Was the barrel clean or fouled and if fouled how many rounds since last cleaning?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
OP
maninthemaze
Joined
Aug 20, 2016
Messages
895
The barrel was cleaned before this last session. I also like a dirty barrel for any hunting, or shooting for group size. For some reason, the first two shots out of any clean barrel are usually off target a little. But once the barrel is fouled it should stay there for around 30-40 shots. That's the way my 7wsm was anyways. I don't have enough history with the 28 yet. I'm beginning to think it's somewhat my chrono and some neck tension. Like I said in a previous post. I cannot insert a bullet into my fired brass. Even with a .320 OD and .016 neck thickness. That should leave .004 gap, but the bullet just won't go. Confusing to say the least!!! Maybe something to do with my brass cleaning and the SS pins. The last time I cleaned them, they were a little discolored from too much Lemishine? I don't see how this could effect it, but who knows.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
 
Joined
Jan 26, 2017
Messages
2,650
Location
PA
It's probably your chrono. I have the ce and it's so unreliable i totally stopped using it. Easily the biggest waste of money I have ever spent on gun related gear.

How did your ladder test look on paper?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
 
OP
maninthemaze
Joined
Aug 20, 2016
Messages
895
It's probably your chrono. I have the ce and it's so unreliable i totally stopped using it. Easily the biggest waste of money I have ever spent on gun related gear.

How did your ladder test look on paper?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
I had several groups that were around 3" most of it vertical with very few horizontal groups. One three shot group measured 5". So I don't think it's all chrono related. This was done at 400 yards. With my 7wsm, I found that 100 yard groups were too hard to read from charge to charge. I'm probably gonna do another ladder test at 700 and not even use the chrono. Just find a load that has horizontal strings and go from there. I'll probably need a 4x8 sheet of plywood. LOL

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
 
Joined
Jan 26, 2017
Messages
2,650
Location
PA
I had several groups that were around 3" most of it vertical with very few horizontal groups. One three shot group measured 5". So I don't think it's all chrono related. This was done at 400 yards. With my 7wsm, I found that 100 yard groups were too hard to read from charge to charge. I'm probably gonna do another ladder test at 700 and not even use the chrono. Just find a load that has horizontal strings and go from there. I'll probably need a 4x8 sheet of plywood. LOL

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
Did you get your loose scope rail straightened out? Your rig sounds like top notch components, it frankly should be shooting far better than it is. If you have a reliable scope you can pull off another gun you might want to swap them out to make sure you aren't wasting barrel life chasing a scope problem.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
 
Joined
Dec 30, 2014
Messages
8,168
I didn't see powder mentioned but if you're using retumbo try something else. For some reason I've struggled to get consistent velocities with it.
 
OP
maninthemaze
Joined
Aug 20, 2016
Messages
895
Yeah, I think I'm fighting neck tension issues as well as having a chronograph that's not repeatable.

I'm using VihtaVuori N570 powder.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
 
Joined
Jan 29, 2015
Messages
18
I have to apologize. I am new on Tap and I only saw part of this thread at first. That being said, this is great info. I have a Rem 700 that I am hoping to build a 28 on. Good luck and keep the posts coming.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
489
Yeah, I think I'm fighting neck tension issues as well as having a chronograph that's not repeatable.

I'm using VihtaVuori N570 powder.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

I would agree. If you can't slide a bullet in without any friction your neck tension is way to tight. This would be the cause of your high pressure and sticky bolt you mentioned in the op.

I know how many 28'a Ryan builds and it's entirely possible his reamer is ready to go and your barrel just happened to be chambered to tight because of this. The diameter of the reamer gets smaller throughout its life.

If you have a neck turner, turn a dozen new pieces of brass and load them up with a charge that will get you in that 3050fps range. There should be an accuracy node here. Then do your bullet test to see if they slide in with ease. If they still don't slide in then you either need to turn your necks more or call Ryan and give him the run down.

The last issue you could be having would be a carbon Ring buildup in your throat. There is a very good chance this has happened. Being that it's a 28 and you've got that much throat erosion already id say it's highly likely.

It would be very beneficial to have your bore scoped before you proceed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

338maker

WKR
Joined
Mar 3, 2016
Messages
338
((((YOU BEAT ME TOO IT DANMAYLAND))))))


Ok I didn't ready everyone's post (almost but not All) so I apologize if this was brought up earlier. I've found that the coarseness and kernel size of VVN570 in large case smaller for bore sized cartridges cause powder bridging as its trying to get forced through neck while burning!! this will give you a lot of swings In velocity and pressures. on bigger bore (33, 308 375) it works awesome and shines in 338 and up in my testing as well as others. and its extremely course!

You said your loaded neck OD is .320" correct? If this is the case I'm sure your chamber has a neck of no bigger than .322" and you running into a neck expansion problem where there isn't enough clearance for the neck to properly release said projo and is causing pressures and accuracy issues, first tip off was that you couldn't force a fired case over a bullet!! It should slide over with out a lot of help....
Call your smith and ask what your chamber NECK DIA is and turn necks to have at least .004-.005" on loaded round clearance compared to that!!

I just measure my new in box nolser brass loaded with 195 and its .3164" give or take so they are running a bit of neck thickness variation between my lot and yours.

just a couple other tips:::::

use RL33

go through your bullets and sort length... not so much from ogive to base but ogive to boat tail/bearing surface junction this will give you a clear and present bearing surface length to work off of!

Also Chrono's can be the root all evil!!!! yes they can give you a good starting point but when validating at range those numbers are not close and you will tweak them always. get the rifle drilling at 100-200 yards never mind the chrono and then shoot it at a 7,8,9 and 1000 and watch for vertical dispersion in 3 to 5 round groups don't worry bout left and right as much and (beings its a 28 i would stick with 3) this will give you a better idea of what your load ES's are at longer ranges plus its a hell of a lot more fun and better practice!!
 
Last edited:
Joined
May 29, 2012
Messages
3,474
Location
Lewiston ID
The barrel was cleaned before this last session. I also like a dirty barrel for any hunting, or shooting for group size. For some reason, the first two shots out of any clean barrel are usually off target a little. But once the barrel is fouled it should stay there for around 30-40 shots. That's the way my 7wsm was anyways. I don't have enough history with the 28 yet. I'm beginning to think it's somewhat my chrono and some neck tension. Like I said in a previous post. I cannot insert a bullet into my fired brass. Even with a .320 OD and .016 neck thickness. That should leave .004 gap, but the bullet just won't go. Confusing to say the least!!! Maybe something to do with my brass cleaning and the SS pins. The last time I cleaned them, they were a little discolored from too much Lemishine? I don't see how this could effect it, but who knows.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Just to clarify, you can't fit a bullet in a freshly fired piece of brass or are you decapping/tumbling first?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Top