Need help finding a load for my rifle

[maninthemaze]

Before I gave up on the chronograph my numbers were.

3056, 3064, 3139, 3113, 3107, 3121, 3097, 3107, 3098, 3130, 3097, 3121.

If I exclude the first two shots, they don't look that bad, with an ES of 42.

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[HellsCanyon]

I'm trying to load the bipod with just shoulder pressure and then using three fingers on my right hand to pull back into my shoulder, not a whole lot. Just applying pressure to keep the gun from kicking too bad. It definitely kicks, even with the brake on it. There's no way I could spot shots. It's got the slabbed mini muscle brake on it. 3 ports.

Also, as far as my 400 target picture. Have you ever seen a gun fling bullets nearly 14" vertical with only a 2 grain difference. Ryan suggested I ladder test at 1000 yards. I would have to use a sheet of plywood. There is definitely something wrong, somewhere. I just wish I knew what it was. I'm gonna burn the barrel up trying to find a load that shoots well.

Thanks again!!!

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14" vertical string makes me think optics mounts are loose.... double check that, especially with a lightweight hunting rifle


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[Jordan Smith]

A couple of thoughts:

- 0.5 MOA without the chrono attached is pretty decent. Just try other powders to get that ES down

- If accuracy continues to be spotty, try a proven scope. A 14" vertical spread screams faulty scope or mounting system

 

[danmayland]

I'm trying to load the bipod with just shoulder pressure and then using three fingers on my right hand to pull back into my shoulder, not a whole lot. Just applying pressure to keep the gun from kicking too bad. It definitely kicks, even with the brake on it. There's no way I could spot shots. It's got the slabbed mini muscle brake on it. 3 ports.

Also, as far as my 400 target picture. Have you ever seen a gun fling bullets nearly 14" vertical with only a 2 grain difference. Ryan suggested I ladder test at 1000 yards. I would have to use a sheet of plywood. There is definitely something wrong, somewhere. I just wish I knew what it was. I'm gonna burn the barrel up trying to find a load that shoots well.

Thanks again!!!

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Yea I would say it's possible to get a 14" spread in POI between 2 grns of powder at 400 yards. It seems a little excessive but not crazy excessive. Remind me what bullets you're using? It certainly could be possible that you're gun just doesn't like that flavor! Mine would not shoot the 175 eldx or 180 vld. 180 Hybrids and 180 ELDM were money tho.


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[EastMT]

A friend of mine had this problem on a new rifle and his brand new Leupold was bad. Spent several hundred dollars chasing holes on paper and finally switched scopes to test it, and it was the 4.5-14 not the rifle. Leupold took care of him but went in for repairs twice. I wouldn't think that velocity spread would cause 14" in high BC bullets. Do you have a spare scope you could throw on it?

 

[maninthemaze]

As a matter fact I was fighting a lose scope rail at the very beginning of my load development. When I got the gun back from the smith, the rail was already attched, but loose. I simply torqued it down and went on. Then I noticed the rail was loose again. I called Stiller and asked for torque specs to make sure I was getting it right. I torqued it down again with blue lock tight. Third time it came loose I took it off completely to inspect it. That's when I noticed, one of the pins was missing. Since I didn't have one, I used a piece of drill stock from my tool and die maker brother. Basically a drill bit blank. Tapped it in, torqued it down with red lock tight this time and it's been tight ever since. It was tight on the 14" spread target and was tight today.

Kinda funny today. It was shooting fairly decent at the end, but the last few shots went back to a 4" group at 200 yards. Might have been getting dirty though. This was around 45 rounds since the last cleaning.

Maybe the scope needs to be sent it? I guess I could take a scope off my .243. It's a cheap nikon. Funny this Vortex that's on it, was more money, than my previous 3 rifles combined. My $400 savage model 12 22-250 shoots 1/4 MOA out to 300 yards. After that the little 55 grain bullet can't fight the wind.

The bullet is the 195 Berger EOL. Might have to try that 180 ELDM. I see there's a thread now that Ryan started about using them on game instead of the X's. Might have to try the Nosler 180 LRAB. I'd hate to see how far I'd have to jump those bullets though. My rifle is throated long, and getting longer.

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[maninthemaze]

And if this ends up being a bad scope, Danmayland will definitely win a prize. He said it was my scope back at the beginning.

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[danmayland]

As a matter fact I was fighting a lose scope rail at the very beginning of my load development. When I got the gun back from the smith, the rail was already attched, but loose. I simply torqued it down and went on. Then I noticed the rail was loose again. I called Stiller and asked for torque specs to make sure I was getting it right. I torqued it down again with blue lock tight. Third time it came loose I took it off completely to inspect it. That's when I noticed, one of the pins was missing. Since I didn't have one, I used a piece of drill stock from my tool and die maker brother. Basically a drill bit blank. Tapped it in, torqued it down with red lock tight this time and it's been tight ever since. It was tight on the 14" spread target and was tight today.

Kinda funny today. It was shooting fairly decent at the end, but the last few shots went back to a 4" group at 200 yards. Might have been getting dirty though. This was around 45 rounds since the last cleaning.

Maybe the scope needs to be sent it? I guess I could take a scope off my .243. It's a cheap nikon. Funny this Vortex that's on it, was more money, than my previous 3 rifles combined. My $400 savage model 12 22-250 shoots 1/4 MOA out to 300 yards. After that the little 55 grain bullet can't fight the wind.

The bullet is the 195 Berger EOL. Might have to try that 180 ELDM. I see there's a thread now that Ryan started about using them on game instead of the X's. Might have to try the Nosler 180 LRAB. I'd hate to see how far I'd have to jump those bullets though. My rifle is throated long, and getting longer.

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My best friend has a 7LRM throated for the 195 and he switched over to the 180 ELDM after seeing how well they shoot in mine. For what it's worth; that solved his accuracy problems and his now shoots bug holes. I will say though that his accuracy problems were ".75" moa. The 195's just weren't consistent and he would get fliers.

I ran the numbers comparing the 195's on his gun vs the 180 ELDM in mine. Here's the results:

195 Berger velocity 2950fps

180 ELDM velocity 3066fps

As for your scope situation: any scope can fail regardless of the company. It's certainly worth a try to swap it out if you have another one on hand. I'd find a stock to try also


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[danmayland]

For what it's worth, the 180 EL DM has a long enough bearing surface that won't require as much jump as you suspect.


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[maninthemaze]

Thanks!! I really appreciate you taking the time to put that togetjer. Definitely makes the ELDM seem like a very good option.

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[HellsCanyon]

Also the LRAB's like a LONG jump... like .120-.250" long. They either like to be right at the lands or WAY off. My 28 Nosler reamer is throated long for the 195's and shoots factory 160 LRAB sub 1/2MOA and it's like .150" off or something crazy.


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[maninthemaze]

I just measured my throat again. It seems like it has quit growing. I guess for the time being anyways, or maybe just slowed down drastically. I measured the throat before it had any rounds fired. Could I have been measuring a corner of the rifling, if that even makes sense. Now that it's got some rounds down it, the edge into the rifling is worn to a chamfer??? I'm not sure how that works. This is the first gun I've measured a brand new throat. My 7wsm I bought a box of ammo for barrel break in, and them started measuring things.

What about the ELDM as far as jump goes. I got a box on the way to try out.

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[danmayland]

I just measured my throat again. It seems like it has quit growing. I guess for the time being anyways, or maybe just slowed down drastically. I measured the throat before it had any rounds fired. Could I have been measuring a corner of the rifling, if that even makes sense. Now that it's got some rounds down it, the edge into the rifling is worn to a chamfer??? I'm not sure how that works. This is the first gun I've measured a brand new throat. My 7wsm I bought a box of ammo for barrel break in, and them started measuring things.

What about the ELDM as far as jump goes. I got a box on the way to try out.

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I think I'm running mine .020 tho off. But I've heard people have good success .040 tho off


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[maninthemaze]

What kind of load data do you guys have for the 180 ELDM's? I've got some H1000 and N570.

What about primers? I used CCI BR2 in my wsm. Should I stick with CCI 250 or try the BR2?

Sorry, bought all the questions. I've only got a few more months before my Montana elk hunt. This gun is just odd. It will shoot fine for a while then BOOM, 5" high, 2" left and a sticky bolt. I'm using a RCBS chargemaster lite.

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[danmayland]

H1000 will be very close to a Retumbo load and crosses over pretty closely in my experience. One will usually be about 50 fps faster than the other. Usually Retumbo but not always. Also worth noting is my load for 180 bergers is identical to the 180 ELDM although the ELDM is about 40fps faster with the same charge. Whether that's pressure or bearing surface, I'm not sure.

Here's a thread on you exact question:

28 Nosler with 180 bullets H1000/Retumbo | Long Range Hunting Online Magazine


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[Jordan Smith]

Whether that's pressure or bearing surface, I'm not sure.

Good info, thanks.

WRT your comment about pressure or bearing surface- same/same. If you're seeing more velocity with 1 bullet over another with all else equal, the faster bullet is generating more pressure, which could be caused by greater bearing surface, different jacket alloy that has a higher coefficient of friction, larger bullet diameter, etc.

 

[ckleeves]

What kind of load data do you guys have for the 180 ELDM's? I've got some H1000 and N570.

What about primers? I used CCI BR2 in my wsm. Should I stick with CCI 250 or try the BR2?

Sorry, bought all the questions. I've only got a few more months before my Montana elk hunt. This gun is just odd. It will shoot fine for a while then BOOM, 5" high, 2" left and a sticky bolt. I'm using a RCBS chargemaster lite.

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Do you have another scale to verify the charges coming off the Chargemaster? I know some guys have great luck with them but I personally haven't at all with multiple different ones.

That could explain your sticky bolt.


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[maninthemaze]

Do you have another scale to verify the charges coming off the Chargemaster? I know some guys have great luck with them but I personally haven't at all with multiple different ones.

That could explain your sticky bolt.


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That's another great idea. I have a beam scale I could set up along side my chargemaster. Just zero both of them for the same pan.

I think I'm gonna try either H1000 or Retumbo. I've got about 40 rounds of brass prepped again. And another 50 brand new I can always try. Hopefully tomorrow, I'll have enough time to load and shoot before my kids soccer game. A man's got to have his priorities!!!

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[maninthemaze]

I just wanted to say that Ryan called me and we had about a 45 minute conversation. He seemed very genuine about finding out why I'm having the issues I'm having. He made another suggestion of double checking the scales. Seems that the RCBS scales sometimes drift from zero. Also, I might not be letting it warm up long enough. Evidently these things are pretty darn sensitive, like it needs to be mounted in a Faraday cage. LOL

Either way, hopefully I can get some loaded and shot before the soccer game.



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[ckleeves]

I just wanted to say that Ryan called me and we had about a 45 minute conversation. He seemed very genuine about finding out why I'm having the issues I'm having. He made another suggestion of double checking the scales. Seems that the RCBS scales sometimes drift from zero. Also, I might not be letting it warm up long enough. Evidently these things are pretty darn sensitive, like it needs to be mounted in a Faraday cage. LOL

Either way, hopefully I can get some loaded and shot before the soccer game.



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Sensitive is a understatement with chargemasters IME. No cell phones near them, no fluorescent lights, warming them up for several hours etc.

After using many difference electronic scales I'm pretty much convinced a good quality beam scale is the way to go. I currently have a Gempro that's been accurate and repeatable BUT it's my second one in less then 18 months so I don't have a whole lot of faith in the longevity of it. I still verify on the trusty beam every 5th or so charge.


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