Reloading

[desertcj]

So, how do you get consistent results every single time if you don't measure it to ensure everything is setup the same? Sure the die has a lock ring on it, but how do you know that you screwed it in to the same tightness? If you are going to go to this level of detail with reloading then it doesn't make sense to operate off of "feel". Headspace consistency can have a major effect on your group. While it might not be necessary, why even bother with all this if your aren't going to ensure everything is consistent. Also, when trying to bump a shoulder back 0.002" and something goes wrong with tool setup, you don't have a large margin of error. Now you just loaded several rounds that won't chamber and you are stuck with ammo that you have to scrap. Obviously this is an extreme but I have had it happen to me. But for $40 you can save yourself this hassle by checking the first round to make sure it's set up correctly. To each his own...

The cases came out of your chamber...why won't they go back in? Think about that for a second. Also, how is something going to go wrong on a shoulder bump that isn't going to allow the case that came out of your chamber to go back in? I'm really interested in hearing that.

 

[rayporter]

over the years i have had a few problems with sizing. a 40 deg shoulder on a wildcat will get a ring at the junction of the body and shoulder causing it to not chamber if you try to push the shoulder back too far.

if you are testing loads and start with a light load and work up to real stout loads the brass will not be the same. even if it has been shot the same number of times. if you set up your dies on the light loads you wont size the brass from the stout loads enough. it may chamber hard or not at all.

 

[desertcj]

I can't imagine having that much trouble sizing cases. I use Lee collet dies to neck size only and I haven't had any trouble. Sounds like most of these problems are actually being caused by the dies.

 

[Broz]

With the right dies, and proper set up, the stepped shell holders are very accurate. As is going by feel. Especially when properly set up to go to zero clearance against the shell holder. Zero clearance when sizing is the only method that is 100% repeatable for die set up time after time. Screwing a die up or down can result in inconsistent results. How? Because some cases need more sizing and will go into the die harder, just like the ones with a little less lube. In these instances it is very possible the harder to size cases will get less shoulder bump. But not if all cases are sized to the point of zero clearance to the shell holder. Those cases get the same amount of sizing as the easier to size ones. You do need to fire a case as many times as it takes to get a firm bolt close. Then with cocking and firing pin assembly removed you can easily feel the resistance. I have all the tools to measure head space too. One common set I have fits on a dial caliper with a bushing that rests on the shoulder. A little more tension with your thumb can make measurements vary .001" easily. So the idea this method is gospel does not hold water. Now follow me here. You have the tight fitting case you need to start. You measure it with the holy grail tool. Then you set your dies up to move the shoulder back .002". You size it, it measures .002" shorter. Are you done?? If so you truly have no idea if it has zero head space or .002" or what. The reason you don't know this is because you have no idea how much the tight case was compressed as you closed the bolt with mechanical advantage. Or how much spring back the case has when you open the bolt. So the easiest way to tell is by putting the sized case back in the chamber and close the bolt again paying attention to feel (again firing pin assembly removed). You repeat this till you feel just a slight drag, then either measure or using the stepped shell holder go for a .002" (Like Chris said from .010 to >.008) Dependent on spring back and how long since you annealed this should be good. But I strongly recommend to chamber the final sized case one more time to be sure of no resistance. Not foolish at all, its precise and is accurate. I will attach a video I did to demonstrate my process using Redding Comp die sets. I should also mention not all dies will work with the cam over or zero clearance method. But good dies will. Video is HERE
Jeff

 

[mtmuley]

I guess I don't understand how feeling a "slight drag" and moving a tool .001 with a thumb are any different. Is the slight drag method consistently more accurate in sizing a case than using a tool? my slight drag might be way different than someone else's in the same rifle. Trying to learn here. mtmuley

 

[Broz]

I guess I don't understand how feeling a "slight drag" and moving a tool .001 with a thumb are any different. Is the slight drag method consistently more accurate in sizing a case than using a tool? my slight drag might be way different than someone else's in the same rifle. Trying to learn here. mtmuley

I was simply pointing out the possible inconsistencies. The biggest being just because you take a fully fire formed case and push the shoulder back .002" does not even begin to tell you that now you will have .002" of head space. Unless you have a custom "No Go Gauge" that is exactly dimensional to your chamber to get the zero number, measuring is mute. Now enter that chamber dimensions can change slightly with time, especially with new rifles and where are you? You need to find what zero is with no spring back. The easiest way to do this I have found was demonstrated in my video. I do this a lot. I did it for a new rifle today, I am only offering what I do and my rifles usually shoot decent. Even at a mile plus. You get away with nothing in the world of ELR. A 30-06 with a 4x Weaver shooting 200 yards may never know the difference. But precision long range rifles will show you with everything from ES to pressure spikes.

Jeff

 

[rayporter]

believe it or not----

the same procedure is used in short range. in my competition rifles i put every case through the chamber to check the fit. my hood press has an adjuster built in to set the bump of the brass on my custom made dies. i adjust it constantly to keep the case shoulder against the chamber shoulder. there is no clearance, it touches all the time or accuracy goes out the window.

but i dont think most hunting rifles should be set up this way.

 

[Broz]

believe it or not----

the same procedure is used in short range. in my competition rifles i put every case through the chamber to check the fit. my hood press has an adjuster built in to set the bump of the brass on my custom made dies. i adjust it constantly to keep the case shoulder against the chamber shoulder. there is no clearance, it touches all the time or accuracy goes out the window.

but i dont think most hunting rifles should be set up this way.

I know what you are saying. I did a poor job with my "tongue in cheek" comparison. What I was trying to say is you have to have precision to know the difference between zero head space, +001" head space or -.002" head space and its results. My bigger LR or ELR magnums do not like a compressed fit brass to chamber. It often results in hard extraction. I have seen many 338 LM's that will stick cases even with a good M-16 style extractor if run with a tight head space. Even when charge weight are backed way off. I think the 338 LM is one of the worst about this. At least some of them anyway.

Jeff

 

[GKPrice]

With the Redding Competition Shell holders, in order to get the least amount of shoulder bump / sizing you should actually be using the shell holder with the tallest rim, not the shortest. The shorter rim will allow the brass to be pushed farther into the sizing die.

You could probably be good without re sizing after your 1st firing since you are getting no bolt resistance chambering the fired case. I agree with the above post, after the 2nd firing you will most likely feel some resistance chambering the fired case. This has been my experience anyway.

If your die is locked in the press using the #10 (thickest) while at the full throw of the press then would not the #2 holder limit the depth the case was pushed into the die ? I can watch the neck size progressing down the case neck from the #2 to #4 and so on ....

One reason to utilize the incremented case holders is so when the die is locked against the lock ring the threads are forced to lock in squared to the face of that #10 holder - die threads are pretty coarse and easy to have out of square without

 

[Broz]

A little info about the Redding competition stepped shell holders. First off, what is above the ram all measures the same. Roughly .252" tall. This allows one to keep the same contact pressure to the die body when cammed over or equal diatance to die when die is locked and shell holders are changed. I cam over then lock the die ring to assure true die alignment.

The steps are all in the floor of the shell holder where the case head sits. #010 has roughly a .116" thick floor allowing the case to not go in the die as far. The thickness of the floor steps up in .002" increments making the #002 floor about .126" thick pushing the case .010" further into the die than the #010.

Jeff

 

[Rthur]

Something to consider when trying to bump the shoulder back on bottle neck cases.
As most if not all dies I've encountered are 14 tpi a simple techinque.
1 inch divided by 14 = .071 thousandths per revolution.
One could move the die a 'minute or two" so to speak to get a small shoulder bump.
Without comparators this would be a guess.
The brass will also spring back some degree depending on how work hardened it has become.
Minimal resizing equals longer brass life.


R

 

[Clarktar]

Thanks Jeff, and everyone else for responding. Hopefully I can get back to the bench and work through some brass and see what I am coming up with.

Guess I should have opted for a full course with you Jeff, clearly I could have used the reloading piece just as much as I needed the shooting piece!

 

[mtmuley]

I was simply pointing out the possible inconsistencies. The biggest being just because you take a fully fire formed case and push the shoulder back .002" does not even begin to tell you that now you will have .002" of head space. Unless you have a custom "No Go Gauge" that is exactly dimensional to your chamber to get the zero number, measuring is mute. Now enter that chamber dimensions can change slightly with time, especially with new rifles and where are you? You need to find what zero is with no spring back. The easiest way to do this I have found was demonstrated in my video. I do this a lot. I did it for a new rifle today, I am only offering what I do and my rifles usually shoot decent. Even at a mile plus. You get away with nothing in the world of ELR. A 30-06 with a 4x Weaver shooting 200 yards may never know the difference. But precision long range rifles will show you with everything from ES to pressure spikes.

Jeff

Thanks Jeff. I use the tool, and size to the same dimension as my fired brass. No setback. I have also kept track and adjusted as my rifles have aged. I haven't watched your video yet, internet access in BFE Montana sucks for that. Thanks again. mtmuley