Reloading: How much are subtle differences noticeable?

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Honest question as a relatively new reloader/long range shooter: How much time, money, and effort is it worth attempting to detect subtle powder changes and COAL on cheaper factory guns?

So here's my example. I'm developing a load for a Savage 12FV in 6.5 CM. Not a fancy gun, heck only cost me $320 on sale from Cabela's.

After trying a few different loads in groups of 5, I settled on a charge that gave me sub 1" five shot groups at 100 yds on two occasions with decent SD and ES (19 and 40 respectively) shooting off a Chrono (F1 Chrony, not a Magneto, but not total junk). These were seated 0.02" off the lands.

I'd really just like to get to loading and practicing, but now I'm OCD'ing over testing some charges in 0.2 or 0.3 grain increments around my "good" test load and/or trying the Berger COAL test (3 rounds each from .01, .03, .05, and .09" off lands).

Am I really going to notice a huge difference as a mediocre shooter using a cheaper factory gun? I think testing COAL might be a good next step, but I seriously wonder if I'll notice anything by adding or subtracting 0.2 grains of powder to a decent load.

Honest question. What do you guys think?

In case you're wondering, using new Lapua Brass, CCI 450 primers, 47 grains of RL26, Hornady ELD-X 143's averaging 2880-2900 fps. out of a 26" tube. Gun has had about 70 rounds through it, so not fully broken in I guess some might say.
 
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I would shoot another 100 rounds of whatever you're contempt with and then revisit. You should be able to get your SD and es down a bit.
 

5MilesBack

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Just depends on how anal you want to get with it, and what you're comfortable with. But every gun.....including factory guns have their own personality and preferences. Just changing primer brands can make a difference.
 

pods8 (Rugged Stitching)

WKR
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Will you POTENTIALLY get better groups out of it (presuming its not a shooter issue) even on a factory gun? Yep. How much nicer and whether its worth pursuing for your uses if you aren't interested in the process is up to you. Playing around with charges and seating to find a sweet spot can improve a load noticeably at distance where the group size is opening up a lot more.
 

gumbl3

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Some of my best best results in tightening up groups have come from neck sizing and consistent neck tension. With Lapua brass I've never "had" to turn necks, it's pretty consistent. Just measure a loaded case width and subtract .002" to get the bushing size.

It's surprising how much just a .5 gr of powder difference can change a group size
 

FURMAN

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The biggest change will most likely come from seating depth followed by powder as a close second and yes a couple tenths matters. I always look for a wide node but not all cartridges provide that. In my experience the Creedmoor has wider nodes with the right bullets. Your Savage should be capable of shooting .5" groups or better at 100 yards. Your load should have under 20fps es when you find the right one.
 

odin0226

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For what its worth, I own 4 savage rifles and they all shoot .5 moa or better with my handloads. If your goal is tiniest groups possible , then your savage can do it.
 
OP
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Well, guess I better get back to the reloading bench and try the seating depth test, then playing around with small increments of powder! Guess that's what the down time is for in Feb and March!
 

Neverenoughhntn

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Short version: if the objective is to shoot long range (say 1,000 yds) then yes it's worth the effort.
Get es and sd down. Ideally ES under 10 / sd in the single digits
This can be accomplished by: Annealing (I anneal after every firing, some go 3-5 firings before annealing), neck sizing (bushing as described in an earlier post) , powder (I would do load development in 0.2 gr increments), and seating depth ( 0.005" increments personally)... primers can also make a difference but that's usually my last step in fine tuning a load .... I also sonic clean after every firing, and use dry neck lube prior to seating.

Keep runout under .004" (I keep mine under .002")... turning necks can help with this (and ES/SD), but if you're using lapua brass in a factory chamber, I'd put it at the bottom of the to do list.

Many factory guns are very capable of shooting well, if one is willing to put in the effort.

Bottom line: CONSISTENCY... anything you can do to make certain one round is EXACTLY the same as the next will help at long range.
 
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A friend of mine is a avid reloader and strives for accuracy. The only rifles he owns are savage, he spends hours dry firing while watching tv. It's a gun that shoots perfectly and you can use it for a crutch in a emergency and not lose sleep over it. HE SAID!
 

oldgrowth

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Lots of different ways to find a great load. I Have had pretty good results using OCW method then playing around with the length. Had a 6.5 Grendel for a while and was able to work up a load that consistently shot .3" groups at 100 yards. My buddy is a die hard bolt gun guy and gave me a razzing when I told him I was going to build a gas gun. After shooting it, he said I changed his mind about how accurate a semi auto could be. That gun shot factory ammo at about 1" @ 100. I think it is definitely worth the effort to explore different loads. I have a el cheapo savage .22 my wife bought from K mart years ago for 99 bucks. It is the poorest fit and finish of any gun I own. Everything is stamped and rough. You have to actually pull the barrel off to get the bolt out. Nothing about it says "accuracy" to me, but i'll be darned if it doesn't out shoot my other .22's. Everyone seems to say Savages shoot great and I have to agree.
 
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I'll agree on the Savages shooting great with reloads. It's definitely worth it, in my experience, to develop a load for every gun I own.

My brother and I purchase those "game" targets for practice. My little savage 22-250 model 12 can flat roast him on the Battleship game. It puts 5 shots inside a dime at 100 yards.

Just my 2 cents and worth the price charged.
 
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I've reloaded for probably 35 years. Done it incorrectly or haphazard a loooong time. And I was suborn a very long time. I will echo what Gumbal stated....in my opinon.....the biggest bang for the buck in reloading has been.....quality FL neck bushing dies and getting neck tension squared away. Second would be a decent scale. Some of the older scales can be tweaked and modified for great accuracy and consistency.

Annealing is huge in my opinion. But it's also a very specific and potentially expensive step to take. Wouldn't be my primary investment if going on The Cheap.

Get your neck tension correct. Get as close to the exact same amount of powder in each case and stick a bullet in as straight as possible and to the same depth as all the others in your ammo box....and it gets harder to obtain poor results.

Whatever you choose ....05...03...or ..02 tenths of variance in powder charge. I wouldn't get terribly nerdy there.....04 may be decent Bang for the buck. And I would not suggest too nerdy on the seating depth. No way I'd dick around with .005" variance. Shoot touching, then -.020....maybe .050".....-080....and -.100. Once should stick out more than the others.
 
OP
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So for equipment I'm using RCBS FL dies and RCBS scale. With my new Lapua brass, I resized everything and cleaned them off in a tumbler and neck brush. Primed them, measured powder and verified each charge. With RL 26 it seems tough to get the perfect charge each time, so I verify each one on the scale and trickle to get exactly 47 grains. Then seat to chosen depth.

Annealing seems tricky without spending a ton of $. I've seen guys using a torch, but that seems iffy best.

School me on neck tension....How do you measure or set proper neck tension? Do I need a tool for that? Like I said, relatively new to reloading, but willing to geek out some more without dropping huge $ on more equipment......
 

Neverenoughhntn

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You don't have to spend a lot of money to anneal. Cordless drill/screw driver, deep socket to hold your brass, a pencil torch, 750* tempilaq, and a metronome app on your phone. Do some YouTube searches and you'll see.... yes, investing in a bench source or amp is ideal, but your mostly paying for convenience/efficiency.... if you don't anneal, you WILL notice a difference after some number of firings.

Neck tension is dictated by the size of the bushing in a sizing die. As was mentioned earlier, measure the neck on a loaded case and get a bushing .002" under that measurement. (I.e neck on loaded case measures .292", get a .290" bushing)

I would recommend Redding or whidden dies.
 

V65Magna

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I've been reloading about 10 years now and it has proven to be a pretty rewarding hobby for me. I've always been able to squeeze better accuracy out of my rifles with hand loads and I'm proud to say that I've not purchased factory ammunition for any of my bolt guns (unless I've needed a source for brass) since the RockChucker Supreme kit arrived via UPS in 2008. Over the years, I have added new "practices/techniques" to my skill set as I've progressed to take my reloading "to the next level". None of this has been rocket science but what I'm doing seems to work for me.

Two of the gadgets I started using a few years back: The Hornady OAL gage and Hornady Concentricity gage have seemed to really help. I don't mess with seating depth that much, I've just basically subscribed to the axiom that "Closer to the lands is better" so I seat pretty much everything at .020" to the ogive and roll with it. "Closer" of course, is a relative term (I know guys routinely jamming the lands to .004" off). Regardless, I've always watched for pressure signs and load check charges leading up to my OCW bracket. Other than that, I just do the best I can to keep everything uniform, inspect and keep track of the load cycles on my brass. My Coopers respond well to neck sizing, so that's what I do for them. My Savages shoot very well and are very forgiving (but are tight with neck sized brass) so I just FL size for them.

Anyway, I think it's worth experimenting a bit (in .2g increments) around that node you found with your Creedmore but I would not go too crazy if you are comfortable with how it is grouping at a given distance. In my neck of the woods, if I have a rifle shooting into 1/4 to 1/2 MOA at 300 yards I'm ecstatic. I don't know much about neck tension (other than it's good to have enough of it) so maybe I can learn from this thread a bit more. Best of luck!
 
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just skimmed this post, maybe mentioned always found brass that had been shot in my chamber at least once and just necked sized with redding s type dies out shot virgin brass or full length sized brass, that is for bolt rifles, ars need full length sized
 

gumbl3

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Short version on neck sizing and tension, there's way better resources out there but I'll take a go at it...

It's kind of two parts. You're starting with high quality brass, it's very consistent and holds up very well. Once you've fired it once, the case has expanded to fit your chamber then recoiled ever so slightly. There's really no need to FL resize the case after that unless you're using it in another rifle. At some point after subsequent reloads it may expand to the point that you have to resize, or at least set the shoulder back a few thou but you can cross that bridge when you come to it. Your bolt will be hard to close, a $20 case headspace gauge will tell you if they need to be resized. That's once factor of neck sizing is you're using fire formed brass to your chamber so everything is tighter and more consistent to your gun.

The tension comes in when talking about how much "squeeze" there is holding the bullet. Your 6.5 shoots a .264 gr bullet. Say the thickness of the neck is .016 that's .264 + (2 * .016) = .296 . By using a Type S die, you order a bushing that is less how ever many thou of tension you want. For ex: .295 for a bushing size would be .001 of neck tension. That's not a whole lot of the neck squeezing on the bullet, you run the risk of pulling the bullet out if you try to eject a chambered unfired cartridge that is in the lands and if it's a heavy recoiling rifle they may shift in the seating depth while in the magazine when fired. For a single loading benchrest shooter these aren't a problem but in a hunting rifle both of these are a problem. .002 tension or a .294 bushing, in this case, is the lowest I'd want to go in a hunting rifle.

You can't measure neck thickness with calibers, you have to have some kind of dial indicator on a mandrel or a ball micrometer. But since you have good brass, you can measure several loaded cases with your calibers at the neck and take the average. This will give you .264 + 2 * neck thickness. Then just subtract .002 for the correct bushing to order. The numbers should be close, within .001 I'd bet. If there's a great variance then you'll need to sort brass and order different bushings to keep the same tension holding the bullet or turn down all the necks so they're consistent. All the brass I use in my 6.5x284 came from HSM ammo which uses Lapua brass. I only had to order 1 bushing, even though the brass came from different boxes/lots, it was that consistent.

Sounds like a lot but all you need (assuming you have the calibers) is a Type S neck sizing die (I like Redding) and the correct bushing. The titanium nitride bushings are a little more but worth the investment.
 

Dioni A

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I'd stick with the load.
Honestly though I've been where your at wondering the potential. I was recently taught a fairly fool proof way of discovering your ideal powder charge. It's proven itself to me the few times I've done it now.
Load 12-15 or so rounds in .2 grain increments one round at each charge weight. Seat the bullets wherever you anticipate them shooting well. Shoot all these over your chronograph documenting the speeds. The velocity should climb steadily till you hit an accuracy node. There, 3 to 5 shots will have very close velocities. Pick the charge in the middle and Viola you have your ideal charge weight.
 
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Just my opinion....I've never had much luck in subtracting .002" from loaded round neck and getting the correct bushing on the first swing. I shoot for .003" or .004" Whether it's "spring back", caliper variance or other. Often -.002" will not hold a bullet.
 
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