Mule Deer Crisis Article

[gr8wht]

He is right the situation is dire. I am going to get involved and I encourage everybody to write the WY game and fish recommending elimination of outfitting and out of state hunting in the area subsequently reducing hunting pressure. Thank you Mr. Wiley for bringing this up. With your help we'll save this herd.

 

[robby denning]

I am curious what facts you are talking about and what information he made up? I am not going to scour the web at the moment but every time a run across an article on WY deer populations it is in line with what he is saying. Are you saying WY mule deer populations are not declining? I would like to use my WY deer points some day on a grate hunt but every year it seams the heard falls a little more and it seams WY game manages just keep issuing tags as if nothing is happening. This is the impression I get anyway from multiple articles on what seams like a regular basis.

This is a “fact” I agree with. Most of what I read and the few people I know and trust say that quality of the hunt (too many hunters) and quality of bucks has worsened over the years. I don’t have the solution either but Rob, conflict of interest or not, brings up some herd issues that seem to be apparently worsening. I’d love to see some of the game and fish facts and look forward to their release. But I always take game and fish Facts with a grain of salt too, because they’re the one selling the tags.

 

[elkguide]

Unfortunately our great wildlife resources fall into the same big pot as most everything in life and the bottom line is determined by following the money.

 

[Joelweb]

I think the real crisis is Chronic Wasting Disease, which is spreading across the state of Wyoming and into neighboring states.

 

[Lawnboi]

Unfortunately our great wildlife resources fall into the same big pot as most everything in life and the bottom line is determined by following the money.

This is what worries me. Sad indeed.

 

[El General]

The numbers that he does site, a deer herd of 500,000 animals in an unspecified time of yesteryear and a deer herd of 364,000 in 2016 with a hard winter following that count represent a nearly 28% total decline. That seems like a statistically significant decline in total herd numbers. If that decline is mostly from certain areas (the western part of the state), and other areas have stayed the same or even increased, then that may show a very steep decline for certain units or local populations.

Of course, since no time frame for the herd number of 500,000 is given, it is hard to assess the real reason for the loss. In most cases, habitat loss is a far bigger factor than hunting, though tag numbers are much more controllable and therefore tend to suffer.

The decline in quality is specifically an age class issue, and there are several management techniques to address this that don't necessarily have anything to do with total numbers.

The author undoubtedly has a financial stake in Wyoming deer management. This is not a particularly science based article, and the notes on long range hunting techniques and selling waypoints, among others, leaves him open to criticism. This doesn't necessarily mean that his stance that it is time to take action is wrong. I certainly think that a harvest reporting system like other states be the first step in getting a handle on the effects of hunter related harvest and is a good suggestion.

 

[Matt Cashell]

But I always take game and fish Facts with a grain of salt too, because they’re the one selling the tags.

Do the biologists in WY pocket money based on the number of tags sold? If not, what is the incentive for manipulating the state data?

The count methods from WY F&G should be available to the public and should reference peer-reviewed research to back up the techniques.

 

[robby denning]

Matt, I’m talking about the conversations I’ve had with G&F agencies, not data. Just this week I talked to a biologist and Utah on a unit that I know very well and I know what to expect from it. He painted a brighter picture of what to expect than reality. I’m not saying he’s lying, but they want to sell me a deer tag and that’s why I take what they say with a grain of salt.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Matt Cashell]

Matt, I’m talking about the conversations I’ve had with G&F agencies, not data. Just this week I talked to a biologist and Utah on a unit that I know very well and I know what to expect from it. He painted a brighter picture of what to expect than reality. I’m not saying he’s lying, but they want to sell me a deer tag and that’s why I take what they say with a grain of salt.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I just don’t understand why a biologist would try to sell a tag?

The biologists I’ve talked to see tags as a management tool.

Politicians, on the other hand, see them in a totally different light. In my experience when they get involved in management decisions, things can get out of whack quickly.

In reference to this thread, I was curious what part of the population numbers or buck/doe/fawn ratios should be taken with a grain of salt. I thought those were the facts you might be referring to.

 

[PathFinder]

Wildlife management agencies are running a business. It may be structured differently, but they are in effect pocketing the money from tag sales. More tag sales means bigger budgets for them, which includes salaries. This why private ownership of wildlife works so much more effectively (think private lands, Africa, etc). Public land hunting and wildlife is an amazing thing, but demand is growing higher here in the west than ever before, along with technology. There are other factors (habitat loss) but I think hunting pressure for mule deer on general units is too high across the west.
I'd support shorter seasons (especially rifle) and tag reductions, antler restrictions (3pt or better, etc) and tag price increases. This will get someone to throw a tantrum, but I'd love to see a ban on guiding and outfitting on public lands too. The percentage of deer killed by outfitter clients in some units is very high. Remove the babysitter and things would be very different.
I definitely agree that mule deer herds are a fraction of what they were 10-20 years ago. Some units across the west are still doing ok, but why is ok good enough? Is allowing more "opportunity" to hunt poor quality herds really a worthy trade off for quality management?
Additionally, I'd love to see very strict oversight (by private organizations) applied to wildlife management agencies. As is true with absolutely any government entity, waste is rampant. All non-essential employees, programs, and equipment should be done away with. Resources should then be allocated to where they are most effective. It's nice to think that they're doing their best, and I'm sure some are. But a 4 year biology degree from a likely biased source means nothing in the real world. My friend ventured down that road for a couple semesters, and we were both appalled at some of the things he was being taught as true in his classes. Another example is Utah's coyote bounty program. As much as I like getting paid to kill dogs, I don't think it does a dang thing for the deer herd. That money would be much more effectively spent on highway fencing.
For too long we've put our deer herds in the hands of poorly educated bureaucrats, and now we're seeing the results of that. Deer herds need to be managed by results, for top numbers and herd health. This pseudo-science, number fudging smoke and mirrors BS needs to end. Growing big game herds isn't near as complicated as they try to make it.

 

[robby denning]

I just don’t understand why a biologist would try to sell a tag?

The biologists I’ve talked to see tags as a management tool.

Politicians, on the other hand, see them in a totally different light. In my experience when they get involved in management decisions, things can get out of whack quickly.

In reference to this thread, I was curious what part of the population numbers or buck/doe/fawn ratios should be taken with a grain of salt. I thought those were the facts you might be referring to.

Matt, not referring to their stats directly.
I’ll give you an example. Go back on my blog to last summer and see the news story I quoted from Idaho Fish and Game on winterkill. It seems they understated it to me by saying “90% of the does survived”. But does are always the last to die in hard winters so to me, that stat is misleading (note that I’m not quoting a biologist, but the department, just as I said above when referencing that I take it all with a grain of salt). That news story was printed June 22, about the time tag sales are really ramping up.

Fast forward into the fall and it was clear that many areas success rate on mature bucks was way down.
When the winter counts came out in January, numbers were down and they stated it (Wyoming units just across the border documented loss exceeding 30%, and I think many of these SE and Western Idaho units approached that %).
The same thing happened winters of 92/93, 96/97, 10/11. They always come back and say something like “OK, it’s worse than we thought”.
I’m not faulting the biologists, nor questioning their stats, but I’ve had more than a few paint a picture that things are better than I know they really are, like the one I wrote about above and hence my “they want to sell me a tag”

There was one Wyoming biologist last spring though that was very adamant that 2017 winter was going to be bad and I’d be wise to save my points. It was memorable because he was the only one out of about five that was saying that. Turns out he was right


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Matt Cashell]

Thanks for clarifying, Robby.

Predicting a winter can be a challenge. I think caution is necessary when implying that agencies generally or biologists specifically are "fudging numbers," as PathFinder mentioned, for their own benefit.

Having had a number of conversations with biologists here in MT, my contacts have been overwhelmingly positive. I have asked about count methodology and received great explanations with research references to back up the methods. It is actually really interesting to see all of the great research that goes into developing count techniques. I haven't got the slightest inkling ... ever ... that they were trying to sell me licenses or worse, trying to get something for themselves at my expense. The biologists I have talked to have seemed trained, competent, and dedicated to what they do. Some of them are members on this very forum.

Now like I said, I have seen politicians twist the data to their angle more than once.

You are probably like me, and just like to get the best data you can, and come to your own conclusions. I am just glad there are those professionals out there getting that data for us.

 

[Mk7mmSTW]

Exactly, or blaming social media for the Mule Deer decline from your Non-Typical Outfitters Facebook page.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Anyone who thinks the deer haven’t been hit hard hard out here is a complete fool. No other way around it. The population was wiped out by the winters in the recent years (2010/2011 and last year). MFF and G&F put up a ton of money, time and research showing the fawn winter kill with data that can not be argued. The state made both regions G & H a 3 pnt or better unit, which in my opinion should never go away. The sheer amount of lazy side by side and truck hunters blasting small bucks from the road needed to stop. The state also slashed non res tags drastically and shortened the G season to 6 days, which cut Robs outfitting money in half. Region H had its numbers cut as well but for reasons I don’t or G&F don’t agree with, the season was only shorter slightly. All of these changes were locked in for the next 5 yrs. The university of Wyoming has an amazing deer management program which is largely publically funded that does more to track our deer numbers/migration and changes than anyone. Numbers are scary low. I’m a HP in Pinedale and the chairman for the Muley Fanatics in this area. This time of year I drive around 10-12 hrs a day and wotk deer crashes and look at deer in the heart of the largest migration routes in the state and crashes and sightings are way way down. I’ve seen BC bucks, medium bucks and small bucks and fawns, but not near the numbers that are typical. Let’s jusy say your heads up your back side and you don’t believe any of the science studies or outfitters or kill numbers about how bad it is. Here’s some data that even a child could understand. Cars hit deer. Car numbers are tracked on each highway. Car numbers are up in western WY this time of year due to this crazy winter and more CO/UT residents are flocking here to snow mobile and ski as they have no snow. More cars mean more deer collisions. Deer collisions this winter aren’t even half as bad as the previous last couple years. Lowest numbers in several years. So to recap, more cars and half the crashes.. why? No deer.

I don’t care for some of the outfitters in the region as I feel they have taken the hunt out of hunting and it’s more of a who can pay the highest to kill this deer. They employ many locals as scouts, and these guys literally hunt for months looking for wall hangers. When these outfitters right sob stories about how bad it is, they’re doing it cause they’ve lost their gravy train for money!

Could the state cut tags more/make residents draw tags? Sure and I wouldn’t buck it. Are they looking at doing it still? Heck yes they are. We are very very fortunate right now that this winter came in short waves that let the game migrate down with zero issues. Couldn’t of asked for a better winter for the animals. Snow levels are low and ice is minimal so even fawns can paw through the crust to get to feed. This isn’t a one winter fix thou, this will be a 5 yr plus fix to get the trophy quality up and yes I think we still need to do more for the deer but the state did do some great changes to help. I spend most my summer/pre season up in the areas where the big guys summer and I live for watching them pre season. I saw plenty of great deer prior to the 17 season and took some great video, but what was missing was the raw numbers and fawns.

 

[4ester]

Not sure why you quoted me unless by accident?

I agree our Mule Deer have a long road to recovery, but it’s not all doom and gloom. Deer coming into this winter have the highest recorded back fat of the study so far which will promote twins this coming spring. And changing G&H to limited quota areas would benefit NTO greatly, increasing NR tag numbers and limited pressure so they can sell these big buck hunts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Mk7mmSTW]

Not sure why you quoted me unless by accident?

I agree our Mule Deer have a long road to recovery, but it’s not all doom and gloom. Deer coming into this winter have the highest recorded back fat of the study so far which will promote twins this coming spring. And changing G&H to limited quota areas would benefit NTO greatly, increasing NR tag numbers and limited pressure so they can sell these big buck hunts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Haha, sorry wrong quote!

 

[cuerro viejo]

I think the real crisis is Chronic Wasting Disease, which is spreading across the state of Wyoming and into neighboring states.

Nope western KS and eastern CO would be void of deer by now if that was true.

 

[tater]

I won't speak directly to the original article, but as someone who has seen a great mule deer herd plummet locally, do something while you still can.

We went from 4K+ deer on a small local wintering range (counted by bios with aircraft) in the late 1990's to only 150 on the same range two years ago. You can go for weeks at a time year round without seeing any mule deer where you would see herds of 10-20 does/fawns/yearlings day in and out in the past.
The Guide/Outfitter in my home region voluntarily suspended mule deer hunts in 2009 after the results of the 2008 winter were the last straw for a struggling population. He still has not resumed guiding for mule deer, and has no plan to even though he is still given his tag allotment by the MoE.

Dr. Valerius Geist theorized 20+ years ago that western mule deer herds were on track for a massive population decline which could precede extirpation in many areas.

I don't have the answers, but i would encourage you to work hard to do what you can to correct the path your herd is on.

ps-As far as bios always knowing what is best, we had bios that stood by as mountain goats WERE extirpated in our area.