Help: Remington Ultimate ML Problems!

[AggieOutlaw]

Looking for any help or advice here.

I am relatively new to muzzleloading. I bought a CVA Optima V2 last year and like it a lot. I've shot it a couple hundred times.
A couple buddies convinced me to upgrade to a Remington 700 Ultimate based on their reviews and, most of all, their tight groups at 200 yards with 200 grains of powder. I was really impressed and want to try some longer range ML shooting so I bought one a couple weeks ago.

I took it to the range this morning. It was nothing but problems. I cannot believe how inaccurate it is shooting. It makes me think something is wrong. I have a brand new Leupold Ultimate Slam 3-9x40 scope on it with Warne steel bases and rings torqued to spec with blue loctite. I tried various loads and projectiles and nothing seemed to shoot well.

Worse, when shooting a 200 grain load, one of the primer cartridges sort of blew up and sent hot gas in my face. Luckily, no one was injured. I don't even understand how this was possible with a bolt. Needless to say, we backed the loads off to 100 gr after inspecting the gun for damage.

I was beginning to think it was all me, but my buddy who has extensive muzzleloading experience took over loading and shooting. He shot just as bad. At 50 yards, the shots were off by as much as a few feet. It's unbelievable. His son who is a competition shooter also couldn't group. One shot must have hit 18" low at 50 yards, because it hit the 25 yard range berm. For what it's worth, all shots were taken from a Caldwell Lead Sled. In the case of the low shot, that gross of shooter error was not possible because the lead sled has a hard stop preventing it from being aimed low.

I really feel like there is something wrong with the gun but I don't have a clue what it could be.

I've put some pictures up. One shows the blown out primer case. Another shows a deseated primer in another case.


Bolt face


Damaged primer cartridge


Deseated Primer? Looks like the one on the right has been "pushed" out.


Lead sled group at 25 yards!


Group at 100 yards. All points of aim were on the right bullseye. The picture got rotated after upload. The "upper" target was on the right and the point of aim was the bullseye. The shots on the left (shown as lower) target were impacts from aiming at the right. Not every impact is shown because those to the right of the target had no neighboring target paper. Some even went left of the left target. Again, all shots were from a lead sled aiming at the right target at 100 yards, 100 grains 777.

Most of these shots were taken with only 100 gr of 777 pellets. We were too scared to try 200 grains after the gas vent problem. We tried Hornady SSTs in 300, Barnes TMZ in 290, and the Remington Barnes 250 that came with the gun. Nothing grouped.

We cleaned the barrel routinely, about once every 4-5 shots. We were careful to repeatedly check for full sabot seating. Weather was perfect. There was NO wind (smoke wouldn't even clear). Temps were mild at around 70F.

Something is wrong, and I can't figure it out.

Any help would be much appreciated. If I can't figure this out soon, I'll be going back to the Optima for my Oct ML hunts.

Thanks,
-B

 

[sabotloader]

On another forum that I visit often - I posed your question o a member that is really good with the Ultimate. His Ultimate is the real thing but he has good knowledge of the Remington 700 Ultimate. Hopefully he will get back to you

mike

 

[ENCORE]

Just was able to respond after sabotloader sent a PM and I joined the site.

To get to the highest contributing factor first, unfortunately it appears you have an excessive head space problem. The bolt is not seating the primer carrier (brass) tightly on the BP nipple, allowing the excessive blow back. The head space is set by the OA length of the BP/nipple and not the length of the brass case. The length of the case has no bearing on head space. Only the thickness of the case head creates the seal. Case head thickness can vary as much as .005" too. This head space problem should be directed to Remington ASAP and they'll most likely want the rifle sent to them for repair or replacement. Remington has handled these issues very well and quickly in the past, according to others I know who have had to return them for head space issues.

Here's the example of how the case is supposed to seal to the nipple, IF I can upload correctly from my computer:
View attachment 55380



Although these rifles are very capable of 200grs, I'd suggest backing it down to 3-T7M (180grs). There are some who will shoot 200grs of Pyrodex, but very few will shoot 200grs of T7. I'd reduce it to 180grs.
The accuracy issues are certainly helped along by the excessive head space. However, I highly recommend that you not shoot from a lead sled, or at minimum eliminate any and all weight off the sled. You'd be far better ahead using a good rear bag. The reason is that the Ultimate rifles and heavy charges are notorious for destroying scopes. Even top quality scopes. I've destroyed two (2) Leupold VX6 scopes on my BP Xpress. Leupold actually couldn't help and purchased my scope back. My rifle now has a Nightforce mounted on it.
Under normal conditions, I'd suggest that you check your scope and make sure that it tracks properly, however if its shooting all over the place, then its very difficult to accomplish. To check the tracking, one would use a large piece of cardboard and shoot at a low spot at the bottom. Then give the turret a couple turns up and shoot at the same spot. It should shoot in a perfect vertical line higher. With the head space problem you appear to have, checking the scope tracking would be almost impossible.

My recommendation would be to contact Remington as soon as you can, explain to them what is happening with the rifle and the cases. I'm pretty confident Remington is going to want the rifle back for repairs or replacement. Now I'm pretty sure this is not what you wanted to hear, but any rifle made can have an issue. Contacting Remington quickly, will most likely get your rifle repaired or replaced quicker.

If you have further questions or I can explain more, feel free to PM me and I'll provide my phone number.

 

[Bar]

Sending it back to Remington sounds like a good plan.

 

[AggieOutlaw]

UPDATE

Before I sent the gun back to Remington, I took out the breech plug and thoroughly cleaned the bore. It was very dirty, especially at the breech. It took about 3-4 rounds of full cleaning with a brass brush, solvent patches, and dry swabs before I felt it was actually clean.

I returned to the range with a new bag of Remington cartridges and BH209 powder. I immediately noticed the rifle loaded easier. The first range trip I noticed the muzzle was extremely tight and the sabot was very difficult to start and would seem to be pinched. The bore opened up a about an inch down and the result was many pinched fingers and banged up knuckles getting the round started down the barrel. After the cleaning, that problem seemed to be resolved. The bore seemed to be loaded much more smoothly.

The gun also shot MUCH better. I got about a 1/2" group at 25 yards vs the 6" group before. The scope tracked nicely at 100 yards and I was able to get about a 2-3" group pretty consistently with a 300gr SST and 130 gr of BH209 by volume. And best of all, there were no scary close calls with exploded primers.

I'm much happier with the rifle. Now I can begin fine tuning a load that the gun likes.

Thanks for everyone's help.

 

[ENCORE]

If your primers are still backing out as far as those in the photo you posted, you still may want to contact Remington. That's just to much head space. Sooner or later you're likely to gas cut your breech plug.