Cardio Advice needed

[P Carter]

I think its easy to confuse "strength" with "size", that scrawny guy could be very strong or very weak. Ultimately we are talking about moving heavy things on our backs over varied terrain. Heavy is relative, could just be you and your gear, meat excluded. Neither strength nor stamina is the absolute best, but rather a ratio that works best for you. An example that helped put things in perspective for me had to do with 2 guys, 1 very strong not much if any cardio and the other not very strong but excellent cardio. The goal was to get a refrigerator up 20 flights of stairs. who wins? The stronger you are the easier it is to move a load. I don't think of strength as how much you can curl or bench press, but rather how heavy a pack you can safely take from the ground to standing and loaded on your back.

Very good point. And it's not inconsistent to be very strong and run a 5 minute mile. It's not an "either/or" question. Better to have a mix of both.

 

[epicaaron]

If you are looking for an actual training plan, something like this would be a good place to start:
12 Week Time Crunched Mountaineering Plan

They also have less time crunched plans that might be a better match depending on your current/past training load and fitness.

If you have the discipline/time to put into training consistently between now and November you will probably see the most results from a training plan that has some degree of systematic periodicity and incorporates sport specific strength, general strength (focused on functional core), and lots of aerobic training.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

Just to spice things up, I actually don't agree with this, based solely on my experience. When I was working on a trail crew hiking all day and hauling heavy loads, I thought for sure my friends and their 5-minute-mile shape but puny muscles wouldn't be able to keep up with me backpacking. They did. Without a problem. Immediately robbed me of what I thought would be an "I-told-you-so" moment. Based in part on that experience, and my experience changing sports and workouts, that there are many different ways to be in shape; but never underestimate a scrawny scrappy person who puts in dozens of miles doing what others consider too miserable to do.

I don't know many backpackers who strap on the loads we do, prior to a tipping point general running muscles and cardio conditioning will serve you just fine for the lighter loaded hiking. I've been out hunting with strong runners and yes they could move very well right up to the point an 80lb load of elk was strapped to their back and then they broke down fast, they just weren't used to moving weight like that esp. uphill. Someone was just on the backcountry podcast talking about training the military for heavy load work and mentioned the same thing, under lower loads cardio conditioning served folks better but once heavier loads came out the stronger folks even with less cardio conditioning performed better as they weren't working as hard relatively. That said he noted if folks are already doing a lot of running then just adding in a bit of heavy hiking and strength work reaps most of the benefits. But if you aren't already doing a lot of running then heavy hiking and box stepping both are less impact and also more sport specific in my honest opinion so that would seem a more logical place to start since ramping up on running to fast to actually get the cardio benefits is a great way for someone trying to get into shape to get injured (too much impact too fast by someone already carry more weight on their chassis). I personally run more in the spring and earlier summer and then switch over to the loads and box stepping.

Running is great exercise but you need more than that to be prepared for the heavy load work mountain hunting can require. My $0.02

 

[P Carter]

I don’t disagree. I really liked that podcast, but I don’t think he was comparing those who cardio conditioned with those who didn’t. I think he said all were on the SAME program, and he notices those that were smaller (5 10, 166) would run faster but those that were bigger (6 4, 250) were faster rucking because the weight was less in proportion to their body. Which is interesting but doesn’t quite answer whether the smaller folks would improve more by lifting more or running more. Regardless, I think the answer is: if you’re only running, add strength and hiking; if you’re only strength, add running and hiking; and anything is better than nothing.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

The gap there which he mentioned briefly and there are some other resources is box stepping can be done at a rate that easily gets you into any heart rate zone you want. In turn it’s less impact and more relevant muscle wise to our fall activity, one could argue a better cardio for us while closing in on the season and taking a break from running impact which is well known for over use injuries. We aren’t trying to improve run times for hunting pursuits. Some running mixed in is just fine but I think there are much better exercises to get ready for hunting when closing in on the season. Atleast that has been my experience, I felt way better training specifically for hunting than when I could run 12mi straight going into a season in the past.

 

[Maus1322]

Everyone,

All i can say is WOW. Thank you for your advice. I appreciate it a lot. I will incorporate the heavy load training as much as I can. As it goes for trails the closest one is 1.5 hours away so it might not work for me to do that as much as I probably should. Tonight I was able to do 3.5 miles in 33 minutes which is the farthest I have done since about 10 years ago. Not the fastest but i felt good afterwards but I don't think i could do another 3.5.

I will try box steps tomorrow with my legs workout. I usually don't have much left in the tank but I will see. I was for sure more tired during the backpacking out of the mountains with the elk so it was a lot of lack of strength (plus my extra weight!!!!) I have been waiting for my goal of 30pounds of fat loss to change my workout. I guess the next question is I am going to try this 12 week crunch ( I dont really want to pay for something yet!) and see where it goes from there. I am very poor at doing my own plan so if anyone has something or is willing to help me develop my own I am willing to listen and do whatever it takes.

Guys thanks again! For being my FIRST post on ROKSLIDE this community is AWESOME!!!!

 

[5MilesBack]

With or without Survivor playing in the background?

You can work out with whatever you want in the background. When I jump rope, my garage is in the background. But don't do much of that anymore.

I never train with a loaded pack. When it's time to haul meat, I just suck it up and go. If 100lbs is too much, I'll haul 80.

 

[Fatcamp]

Run. Slowly for long distance.
Squat. Heavy.
Stretch.
It really is that simple, but coming from a group of guys that cut their toothbrush in half it's gonna get complicated.

 

[mathews8pt]

Has anyone incorporated walking bleachers into their plan? Im with the OP in the fact i cant always make it out to a trail to hike and im trying to add some cardio into my training. I have a fairgrounds close by with some tall bleachers and thought i could hit them with no pack all they way up to a heavy one depending on how im feeling.

 

[fightthenoise]

Has anyone incorporated walking bleachers into their plan? Im with the OP in the fact i cant always make it out to a trail to hike and im trying to add some cardio into my training. I have a fairgrounds close by with some tall bleachers and thought i could hit them with no pack all they way up to a heavy one depending on how im feeling.

Walking bleachers with a pack is fantastic mountain work.


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[Fatcamp]

Has anyone incorporated walking bleachers into their plan? Im with the OP in the fact i cant always make it out to a trail to hike and im trying to add some cardio into my training. I have a fairgrounds close by with some tall bleachers and thought i could hit them with no pack all they way up to a heavy one depending on how im feeling.

No, but I walk stairs on my lunch break. Brutal.

 

[P Carter]

Everyone,

All i can say is WOW. Thank you for your advice. I appreciate it a lot. I will incorporate the heavy load training as much as I can. As it goes for trails the closest one is 1.5 hours away so it might not work for me to do that as much as I probably should. Tonight I was able to do 3.5 miles in 33 minutes which is the farthest I have done since about 10 years ago. Not the fastest but i felt good afterwards but I don't think i could do another 3.5.

I will try box steps tomorrow with my legs workout. I usually don't have much left in the tank but I will see. I was for sure more tired during the backpacking out of the mountains with the elk so it was a lot of lack of strength (plus my extra weight!!!!) I have been waiting for my goal of 30pounds of fat loss to change my workout. I guess the next question is I am going to try this 12 week crunch ( I dont really want to pay for something yet!) and see where it goes from there. I am very poor at doing my own plan so if anyone has something or is willing to help me develop my own I am willing to listen and do whatever it takes.

Guys thanks again! For being my FIRST post on ROKSLIDE this community is AWESOME!!!!

If you're going to go the running route, that's great, but it will take discipline to avoid getting injured. It's counterintuitive, but I've found that the most discipline is required to run SLOW enough and not add mileage too quickly until a strong base is established. The goal is to work the aerobic system, so if you're going too fast then you are working the wrong system.

If you're looking for a plan, how about this: in addition to the strength work you are currently doing, run 3ish miles a week, 3 times a week, at a SLOW pace for at least 3 weeks. (Slow pace here would be what's referred to as "conversational;" basically where you could speak a sentence or two in a row to a companion without struggling. So no ragged breathing, but not so easy that you could carry on a monologue.) After that, perhaps add 1 mile to 1 run a week. (First week, 4-3-3; second week, 4-4-3; third week, 4-4-4.) Then I'd stick with 4 miles three times a week for another two weeks. Then, if feeling good, do one 6 mile run a week, with the others at four miles, all at a conversational pace. I wouldn't do any more miles than that, or add intervals this season. (The actual speed at which you can maintain a conversational pace should increase pretty quickly.) If you are disciplined and run slow enough, consistently enough, and don't succumb to the temptation of increasing speed or distance too much, this should help a lot. If you are metrics-driven (and you appear to be, from timing your first run), the best measure of progress would probably be resting heart rate or perceived effort. After a month or so your resting heart rate should go down pretty dramatically, and your 3 or 4 mile runs should become very comfortable.

And, for specificity, perhaps make the drive to the trails once every two weeks or once a month and do some weighted pack hiking.

Best of luck and enjoy!

 

[Poser]

Has anyone incorporated walking bleachers into their plan? Im with the OP in the fact i cant always make it out to a trail to hike and im trying to add some cardio into my training. I have a fairgrounds close by with some tall bleachers and thought i could hit them with no pack all they way up to a heavy one depending on how im feeling.

I’ve done that before when I didn’t live in the mountains. It works well, especially since it prepares your calves and quads for the eccentric downhill. If you’re off the couch, go easy on the first couple of sessions because going down steps with a heavy ruck will make you sore as hell if you are not conditioned for it.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

You can work out with whatever you want in the background. When I jump rope, my garage is in the background.

It was a Rocky (the movie) workout montage reference.

Has anyone incorporated walking bleachers into their plan? Im with the OP in the fact i cant always make it out to a trail to hike and im trying to add some cardio into my training. I have a fairgrounds close by with some tall bleachers and thought i could hit them with no pack all they way up to a heavy one depending on how im feeling.

That's generally the box stepping except you don't have to go anywhere (less excuses about not fitting it in ). There is no scenery change but I just listen to a podcast or audiobook and tune out, I use a hand clicker to keep track of steps.

 

[fightthenoise]

For box stepping do you guys step down the other side and turn around or do you step backwards off the same side?


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[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

For box stepping do you guys step down the other side and turn around or do you step backwards off the same side?


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Step back down backwards. The routine is leg up, go to standing and plant other foot and step back down first with the lead leg that way you are actually stepping fully onto the box. I rotate lead leg every 10-25steps depending on what I'm feeling like for mixing it up that day. You can step more in a vertical motion or more in a diagonal upward/downward motion. 16" box is what I'm using.

 

[sveltri]

Please take them time to listen to the Hunt Backcountry podcast I referenced earlier, sorry I can't figure out how to provide the link. The findings that he provides relating to running were pretty fascinating to me. They found that running 12 mi a week total for military members, much of whom are probably younger and have had less time to destroy their bodies, was the optimal mileage. More miles than that did not produce better PT times, but did lead to much higher incidences of injury. I'm fortunate that I live at 7k feet and get to train 4-5 times a week at that elevation, but since doing the podcast guest's program when I do get to go higher elevations I can without a doubt get around much more comfortably than ever before.

 

[P Carter]

Here's the link. I found it interesting as well, particularly that 12 miles/week was a bit of a sweet spot in the military training regime. Hence, in part, my suggestion for 9 miles a week first, then up to 12, and only eventually adding the 6 miler in to bring the total to 16. Coincidentally, that is essentially the mileage progression I used at first before scaling up afterwards.

How to Hike Heavy — Hunt Backcountry Podcast Episode 132 – Exo Mountain Gear

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

The 12mi a week was the sweet spot for performance on their 3mi timed run. They had a running metric they needed to meet thus they needed to run a certain amount to achieve it. We're not trying to achieve a running metric, we're hunting/hauling in the mountains. Again that isn't to say don't mix in running, its just you have to keep in mind what your goal is vs their goals. There are other activists that produce a cardio load with less impact that can engage more of the muscles you'd be using on hills that what typical running conditions deliver. Adding weight and/or steepness will make you work a lot harder (and thus increase your cardo load) without deviating from a walking gait and increasing the impact on the body.

 

[sveltri]

pods8 - I 100% agree, the point I was trying to make was that just adding up running mileage wasn't the key to the end goal.