Unbreakable Runner

[gauge]

So I have signed up for my first marathon. I do not really consider myself a runner, especially competitively. I mainly circuit train, HIIT and average 15 to 20 miles a week running. I enter a few 5k's and just finished a 10 mile trail race.
I do not want to take the traditional approach of pounding out long road miles training for this marathon. I also want to keep my weight at 165-170, currently 173. I have been looking into different marathon schedules and am overwhelmed.
Has anyone read Unbreakable Runner or know of the plan? Any suggestions or experience?

 

[Poser]

I've read the book and looked over the training plans. I also know a guy who followed the marathon program. Like the vast majority of the people running marathons, he wasn't trying to win, merely finish in a respectable time without injury and or excessive suffering during the process.

The program seems reasonable to me. Its probably a good way to run these types of events and not look and feel like an emaciated, recovering drug addict (the way most competitive runners look). America's most elite runner recently hit the gym, packed on 40 pounds of muscle and stated that most pro runners are "weak". He mentioned that in prime running shape, stirring a pot of chili would make his shoulder sore. With a solid strength and conditioning base, its very possible for an athletic person to prepare for a marathon in 6 weeks of specific training without sacrificing an excessive amount of muscle. That doesn't imply that you'll win the race, only that you'll finish it in a reasonable time. You will almost certainly have to eat quite a bit more than you do presently in order to maintain your body weight and muscle.

http://www.outsideonline.com/2087751/yes-professional-runners-are-weak

 

[gauge]

I've read the book and looked over the training plans. I also know a guy who followed the marathon program. Like the vast majority of the people running marathons, he wasn't trying to win, merely finish in a respectable time without injury and or excessive suffering during the process.

The program seems reasonable to me. Its probably a good way to run these types of events and not look and feel like an emaciated, recovering drug addict (the way most competitive runners look). America's most elite runner recently hit the gym, packed on 40 pounds of muscle and stated that most pro runners are "weak". He mentioned that in prime running shape, stirring a pot of chili would make his shoulder sore. With a solid strength and conditioning base, its very possible for an athletic person to prepare for a marathon in 6 weeks of specific training without sacrificing an excessive amount of muscle. That doesn't imply that you'll win the race, only that you'll finish it in a reasonable time. You will almost certainly have to eat quite a bit more than you do presently in order to maintain your body weight and muscle.

http://www.outsideonline.com/2087751/yes-professional-runners-are-weak

Thanks Poser. I have come to count on your comments on here. You seem to have a very balanced knowledge in nutrition and training and one that is not tainted by industry marketing.
My marathon is simply a mental challenge for me and a goal of under 4 hours. I will check the book out.

 

[Jason Snyder]

I haven't read any of the books mentioned, but I can give you real world experience. I've done several trail races from 22 miles to 50 miles, and I don't run every day. In fact, when I was training for my last several, I would lift/strength train 2-3 days per week, mountain bike 1-2 days per week, and run 2-3 days per week.

For my 50 miler, I often only ran 3 days per week, but would total anywhere from 40-60 miles in that time period. I weighed 190 pounds when I did my 50 (6' tall).

If I were you, I would start progressing on a long run. Increase your mileage by 10% each week and work up to 22-24 miles about three weeks prior to the race, then start tapering down quickly. I would probably do one tempo run per week, and then use one day of running as an active recovery day.

I met a gal at an ultra in Hells Canyon a few years ago. She did a 28 mile trail run and didn't hardly run at all in her preparation. She also kicked my ass. Not saying this is the approach for you, rather the point is that you don't have to log tons of miles and pound the pavement every day in order to run a marathon. I've had much fewer injuries and have put forth faster times on my trail races since I went to an approach that was much more oriented to the cross training aspect of things.

 

[airlocksniffer]

If you can get 2-3 20 mile LSD runs prior, with a 1-2 week taper you'll finish no problem.No matter what kind of wall you may hit at mile 20, you can grind out another 6.2. Good luck!!

 

[Poser]

I just flipped through the marathon program. Its 12 weeks and You'll never run a distance longer than 10k that I saw flipping through it.
You will need some accurate data to effectively do the program. You need to know your 5k pace and your 10k pace. I recall in the book that he doesn't have a problem with people who can't wrap their head around completely foregoing LSD running to do 1 LSD run a week subbed for one of the other workouts.

You are going to need a track or some accurately measured distances since you are doing repeats at 400m, 600m, 800m, and 1000m. He also has you doing sessions dedicated to nothing but drill work to better develop your running technique. You'll probably want to watch some of the Youtube videos on his technique drills. I think that he is also a proponent of having you run with a metronome to work on pacing.

I'm looking at a random day during week 7:

30-45 min drills
5x1000m, rest 3 min between

Tuesdays are split days with drills and repeats in the AM and Interval work/Crossfit in the evening.

Another random day I see is:

20-30 min drills
7 miles @ 80% of 10k race pace (presumably using a metronome)

 

[Poser]

Also, I would make sure that whatever Strength/Interval/Xfit programming you follow allows for you to deadlift once a week inside of this programming. General consensus seems to be that runners have notoriously weak and tight posterior chains and are in dire need of deadlifts to balance them out. (the dedicated runners I see while biking to and from the gym are in dire need of all major lifts, but if they are going to pick one, pull some weight from the floor).

 

[gauge]

Also, I would make sure that whatever Strength/Interval/Xfit programming you follow allows for you to deadlift once a week inside of this programming. General consensus seems to be that runners have notoriously weak and tight posterior chains and are in dire need of deadlifts to balance them out. (the dedicated runners I see while biking to and from the gym are in dire need of all major lifts, but if they are going to pick one, pull some weight from the floor).

I am covered on my lifting routine, squats, cleans, dead-lifts.
I am weaker in my run training. I don't really know how accurate my pace estimation will be. I don't know that I have a 5k/15k pace. I just run and try to push myself each time. Some days that's a 8 min pace and some days that is a 7:20 pace. I also have not done much track running. I see these in most training programs. What are the benefits of the splits on the track and how important are they?

 

[mtnrunner260]

Gauge. Sounds like this program focuses on PACE a lot. It is very important. In college I ran cross country and track aND while doing repeats on the track if we were off by more than 1 sec at 400 into a 1000 we had to stop and try again.
I would say that 98% or more of people doing road racing from 5k to marathon who have a goal time hurt their chance of reaching the goal by starting to fast.

 

[gauge]

Gauge. Sounds like this program focuses on PACE a lot. It is very important. In college I ran cross country and track aND while doing repeats on the track if we were off by more than 1 sec at 400 into a 1000 we had to stop and try again.
I would say that 98% or more of people doing road racing from 5k to marathon who have a goal time hurt their chance of reaching the goal by starting to fast.

So how do I set those goals for my track repeats?

 

[Jason Snyder]

If you aren't adept at estimating and holding pace, you would probably be well served to run a little more with a HR monitor. For a beginner marathon you are going to want to hold at the lower end of your aerobic zone, which will get harder through the race as you dehydrate and build up lactic acid.

It is very difficult for beginners to hold their pace. Heck, it's still hard for me to hold my pace early and I KNOW the consequences that come if you don't. It's not fun.

If you're going to use a program that eliminates the long slow run, I'd be darned sure I was following it to a "T". If not, just incorporate the long run each week and use it to feel comfortable at a slow pace.

 

[Poser]

If you're going to use a program that eliminates the long slow run, I'd be darned sure I was following it to a "T". If not, just incorporate the long run each week and use it to feel comfortable at a slow pace.

I agree with Jason. Guesstimating and being off could be very punishing when it comes time to run more than 2x any actual distance you have previously ran. I feel like that in order to accurately gauge these paces, you would probably need to run 2 5ks and 2 10ks. The first time to get a feel for your pace and the 2nd time to set a metronome (phone apps for this) for your desired pace for each distance and then run the whole race at that pace. You wouldn't necessarily have to do this in a formal race setting so long as you had a track access or known distances.

Some more experienced runners can elaborate further, but I would suggest researching pacing, heart rate monitors and metronomes.
Also, some Xfit boxes run separate CFE programming. You might check in your area and see if there is a CFE certified coach who could work with you on the marathon programming. If nothing else, the CFE website has info, a forum and training logs where maybe you could interact with others on the marathon programming. Perhaps you can get a better feel for your pacing from others who are similar age, height and weight. I'll be interested to see how this plays out for you. The CFE program can be a very polarizing subject amongst runners and triathletes.

 

[Jason Snyder]

I have a Garmin 310 that I bought refurbished for about $150. It's a great tool for you to understand HR and pacing. I mostly run trails, so a constant pace is out the window. I rely much more on perceived exertion and HR.

Where the GPS will really shine is in the first half of your marathon where you feel great and think you can run like the wind.

 

[airlocksniffer]

Heck, it's still hard for me to hold my pace early and I KNOW the consequences that come if you don't. It's not fun.

For sure. My best races have been the ones where I was consistent. Going out too fast always results in a bad race IME. It takes a heck of a lot of willpower to not rip at the beginning. If you can control your pace, you'll be passing those folks by the end anyway.

 

[gauge]

Thanks guys. I ordered the book and am hoping learn more about a training approach that focuses not only on running. I will likely incorporate a few strategies into my training. I do plan to do a 20 mile LSD run or two before my taper. Mentally I think I will need that.
The race is in October. I will be in the mountains elk hunting a month before my first marathon at a time I am supposed to be peaking in training. I am not real sure how that will work but I train to hunt so I had to weigh my priorities. Probably not a conventional approach. Haha
I may come back to this thread later with more questions.

 

[gauge]

I have a Garmin 310 that I bought refurbished for about $150. It's a great tool for you to understand HR and pacing. I mostly run trails, so a constant pace is out the window. I rely much more on perceived exertion and HR.

Where the GPS will really shine is in the first half of your marathon where you feel great and think you can run like the wind.

Jason, HR monitor suggested then? Any other brands that are good?

 

[Poser]

The case for the 5k, not the marathon:

The 5K, Not The Marathon, Is The Ideal Race | FiveThirtyEight

 

[gauge]

So I am recovering from my first marathon that was on Sunday. My recovery has not really been an issue. Although I am sore/tight, I feel good over all and my energy level is good. I credit that to my "crossfit/unbreakable runner" approach I took in my training. I did not follow this training plan perfectly. I did my long runs once a week, but my overall mileage was still much lower than other training plans. I did crossfit wods 2-3 days a week, and ran 3-4 days a week.
My goals going into this race where: keep muscle mass, finish under 4 hours, and not lose too much training ground elk hunting for 10 days, 4 weeks before the race. I accomplished these goals only losing 7 lbs overall, finished 3:53, and enjoyed 10 days in the mountains chasing elk, coming back feeling ready to keep training.
Where I failed: I cramped pretty at mile 21 and 25. This hurt my time as I was on pace for a 3:45. I also don't really remember much of the race after mile 20. Although it was very hot for October, I really was surprised my body shut down on me.

Can any runners give me some feed back. Can I train the same way for a marathon and expect better results? Cramping was extremely frustration when I was still feeling somewhat fresh. Do you guys find that each race is different or should I change my approach for my next marathon if I want to improve?

 

[Jason Snyder]

Congratulations on the finish! That's a great time.

What sort of cramping are you referring to? Legs? Diaphragm?

 

[gauge]

Congratulations on the finish! That's a great time.

What sort of cramping are you referring to? Legs? Diaphragm?

Thanks! Hamstrings, which actually surprised me the most. My training involved a lot of deadlifts, squats, stepups, and all of my runs were in a very hilly area. The marathon was relatively flat which is why I felt so strong throughout, until the cramps. I am just not sure what to do different to prevent this as I had to really change my stride to keep from locking up. I'm not really a runner so I am open to suggestions.