Bad choice for Colorado Muzzleload?

whitingja · Jun 9, 2014

So I just purchased a new Traditions Vortek, and have been picking everyones barins here about powder and load. I just spoke to a guy from PRBullets, recommended by Robby, and asked him about a bullet recommendation fror my Traditions Vortek, and he told me that my gun choice was "terrible" because of the twist. He stated that I needed a 1 :28 twist, and that all these rifles(Traditions, bone collector, Acurra...) were not good for Colorado hunting. I was kinda surprised. He said they are all made for sabbots. What are your thoughts on this? This is the first time I heard this. He said I needed a TC Hawkin or Renegade. Basically the others were crap for this type of hunt and the bullet restrictions of Colorado. Please help. Thanks.

huntabsarokee · Jun 9, 2014

I don't have this gun but shoot a Thompson inline and a Lyman smooth bore. I am guessing his point is since you can't hunt with sabots in CO the faster twist is not an advantage and probably a disadvantage. A much slower twist like my Lyman is designed to shoot round balls and similar better than the 1:28 twist. I am also guessing most guys in CO are not shooting round balls. Probably power belts and similar. So yes they would probably fly better out out of a slower twist than your 1:28 but since you are handicapped by not allowed a scope your accuracy may be more limited to how far you can shoot with open sights. Now if you could hunt with a scope and had to use your fast twist with non saboted bullets then YES you would probably suffer at the longer ranges.

I say keep your gun and buy a few different types of bullets and see what shoots the best. My dad took some Hornadys to CO last year that shot good at paper.

whitingja · Jun 9, 2014

OK, thanks.

30338 · Jun 9, 2014

My muzzleloader bulls have all been less than 75 yards. If you can hit a pie plate at 100 yards off a field rest, you are good to go. You should be able to find a conical that will do that with a little experimentation. Good luck.

whitingja · Jun 9, 2014

Yeah, I don't imagine I will need to shoot further than 100 yds. Never seen a bull in my area that was further than 100 yds anyways, or atleast one I wanted to shoot.

robby denning · Jun 9, 2014

whitingja

Cecil at Precision Rifle can be a little grouchy, but he knows muzzleloaders. Technically, he's right. Most of the modern guns are built for sabots (fast twist) because that it what most states allow. Conical-only states are a small piece of the pie (Oregon, Idaho, Washington I thinkn) so many gun manufactures aren't going with the slow twist that seems to better stabilize conicals. PR told me the same thing about my Thompson Encore and sure enough, they were right. The Encore will shoot 1.25" groups with sabots, 5" with conicals (and I tried a bunch of them). The older guns like he mentioned with the 1:48 did on average handle conicals better.

Now having said that, you still might get a conical to shoot. As said above, you just need to try some different loads and tuning. I have a 1:28 that shoots a PR conical great (2" at 100 yds with a peep.) and another that hates conicals. PR just wants people to know up front what the issue may be so people don't blame the bullet.

If you have a Sportsmen's Warehouse nearby, they carry PR conicals, Powerbelts, T/C, etc. Pick some up, go as heavy as you can (longer conicals shoot better in fast twist) try 2F Triple seven, use a bullet starter/lube (might not need for powerbelt), get the bullet centered and down over 90 grains loose and start working up in 10 grain increments. Mount a scope, shoot off a solid bench with good sandbags (at stock and fore end) and use a foam pad if the kick is bad (conicals have to be heavy to shoot in a fast twist). Start early, have 2 or 3 hours, write everything down and I'd bet in one session you'd know if the gun will shoot them. Once you have the load, pull the scope, shoot your open sights and you'll be good to go.

whitingja · Jun 9, 2014

OK, thanks Robby. I know I need to get on this quickly, time is running out. Like I said above, I think I will be able to at least hit a paper plate at 100 yds. Never realized muzzleload shooting was so technical. Thanks again.

robby denning · Jun 9, 2014

Yes, very technical if you demand accuracy. Post up your questions, we'll help you any way we can.
Are you shooting 209's?

whitingja · Jun 9, 2014

Yes sir, 209 powder and Federal primers recommended by Blackhorn. Is that what you were reffering to?

robby denning · Jun 9, 2014

yes,
if you've already got the Blackhorn, go with it. Good stuff. Only way I'd get away from it is if you can't get the accuracy you're looking for, but you should be good. Bullet probably makes a bigger difference in your accuracy.

sabotloader · Jun 9, 2014

whitingja said:
So I just purchased a new Traditions Vortek, and have been picking everyones barins here about powder and load. I just spoke to a guy from PRBullets, recommended by Robby, and asked him about a bullet recommendation fror my Traditions Vortek, and he told me that my gun choice was "terrible" because of the twist. He stated that I needed a 1 :28 twist, and that all these rifles(Traditions, bone collector, Acurra...) were not good for Colorado hunting. I was kinda surprised. He said they are all made for sabbots. What are your thoughts on this? This is the first time I heard this. He said I needed a TC Hawkin or Renegade. Basically the others were crap for this type of hunt and the bullet restrictions of Colorado. Please help. Thanks.

OK - I would counter this by offering this thought - one of the best shooting conical muzzleloaders ever made were/are Whites. They are a 504 bore and have a 1/24 twist. Doc's 45 are even tighter with a 1-20 twist. Both of these twists shoot be long lead conicals great!

All of the ML's that I use here in Idaho are either the 1-24 twist Whites or 1-28 Twist Knights. There is no problem shooting conicals from them.

There is a problem shooting conicals from TC bores because of the QLA on the end of the bore may cause some deflection. This illustration shows why.

I have not heard that the EZ loading muzzle on a Traditions or CVA has these same problems. Even then not all TC's have this problem.

Whites and Knights do not have an EZ loading muzzle so it is a non-issue with them.

I would suggest you get some lead conicals and shoot em - I would think they would shoot just fine. I would suggest a shot card or a sub base be used with a lead conical as the heat from T7 or BH could melt the base of the bullet leaving lead splattered up your bore.

This picture shows me shooting a .503x350 grain lead conical from a Knight Ultra-Lite

My elk load is a .503x460 grain Bull Shop - it also shoots great from form 1-24 or 1-28

Another two bullet you might look into is the Thor, all copper conical, and the Hornady FPB a copper lead conical.

wolfman · Jun 10, 2014

Lots of good info from the guys on here. I went through a similar exercise last year for Moose hunting. Sabotloader really helped me out a bunch. He knows his stuff? I went with a 460 grain No Excuses lead bullet and 100 grains of T7 powder with a 209 primer. You can shoot a conical through these guns without a sabot and have success. It took a bit to get it dialed in so I would get started on that. Good luck!

Eric Bailey · Jun 10, 2014

It is my understanding that a faster twist rifle needs a longer projectile to stabilize it appropriately and that is why Robby and others are going with a very heavy lead bullet. I find the Thor 300 grain all copper bullet to be plenty accurate out of my 1:28 rifle. It is longer for the weight than a lead bullet and won't hurt you quite as bad.

elknturkey · Jun 10, 2014

sabotloader said:
OK - I would counter this by offering this thought - one of the best shooting conical muzzleloaders ever made were/are Whites. They are a 504 bore and have a 1/24 twist. Doc's 45 are even tighter with a 1-20 twist. Both of these twists shoot be long lead conicals great!

All of the ML's that I use here in Idaho are either the 1-24 twist Whites or 1-28 Twist Knights. There is no problem shooting conicals from them.

There is a problem shooting conicals from TC bores because of the QLA on the end of the bore may cause some deflection. This illustration shows why.

I have not heard that the EZ loading muzzle on a Traditions or CVA has these same problems. Even then not all TC's have this problem.

Whites and Knights do not have an EZ loading muzzle so it is a non-issue with them.

I would suggest you get some lead conicals and shoot em - I would think they would shoot just fine. I would suggest a shot card or a sub base be used with a lead conical as the heat from T7 or BH could melt the base of the bullet leaving lead splattered up your bore.

This picture shows me shooting a .503x350 grain lead conical from a Knight Ultra-Lite

My elk load is a .503x460 grain Bull Shop - it also shoots great from form 1-24 or 1-28

Another two bullet you might look into is the Thor, all copper conical, and the Hornady FPB a copper lead conical.

right on man. I also gonics which have an even faster twist and are made to shoot heavy long conicals. I shot bullets in the 460-495gr range with exceptional accuracy. Does Colorado still have the bullet can't be longer than 2x the diameter rule?

robby denning · Jun 10, 2014

elknturkey, nope, they dropped that stupid law. Thank you Colorado!

Great post sabotloader!

whitingja · Jun 10, 2014

Thanks for all the great info guys. Makes me feel less overwhelmed

Bar · Jun 28, 2014

I'm not sure why nobody picked up on this, but the Vortek has a 1-28 twist. It's a great gun for Colorado, and will shoot conicals and sabots just fine. Although the sabots aren't legal in Colorado during muzzy season. They can be used in rifle seasons.

stevenm2 · Jun 29, 2014

Oregon has the stupid 2 x diameter rule but I find that the 460 gr. Bullshop and No Excuses work well with my 1: 28 twist knight rifles. I am using the MMP sub bases suggested by sabotloader in a different post. These shrunk my groups down considerably. I am using 80 gr. of triple seven the sub base and a 460 gr. Bullshop conical with peep sights. View attachment 16947
the third shot is a flyer and is probably a flinch but is still a kill shot. It is not the gun or load.
I have similar results from both my MK-85 and my LK-93.
Oregon has indicated they want to go to "lead free" ammo for hunting but still require all lead for muzzleloader seasons. because sabots are not legal there really are not any all copper alternatives available. They need to chose a direction.

Bar · Jun 29, 2014

stevenm2 said:
Oregon has the stupid 2 x diameter rule but I find that the 460 gr. Bullshop and No Excuses work well with my 1: 28 twist knight rifles. I am using the MMP sub bases suggested by sabotloader in a different post. These shrunk my groups down considerably. I am using 80 gr. of triple seven the sub base and a 460 gr. Bullshop conical with peep sights. View attachment 16947
the third shot is a flyer and is probably a flinch but is still a kill shot. It is not the gun or load.
I have similar results from both my MK-85 and my LK-93.
Oregon has indicated they want to go to "lead free" ammo for hunting but still require all lead for muzzleloader seasons. because sabots are not legal there really are not any all copper alternatives available. They need to chose a direction.

You still have an all copper conical as an option. The Thor bullet.

https://thorbullets.com/

sabotloader · Jun 29, 2014

Bar said:
You still have an all copper conical as an option. The Thor bullet.

https://thorbullets.com/

Nope - not in Oregon or Idaho - has to be lead...

Bad choice for Colorado Muzzleload?

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