Synthetic vs Down insulation??

[JP100]

Hi guys
Over the last couple of years I have tried a Synthetic bag in various conditions and been left a bit disappointed, this season my guide tried one and was of the same view as me(cold).

Yesterday I was trying to do some more research into actual comparisons, which is difficult as everyone 'feels' cold differently but there are more scientific methods to test insulation(you would hope).

I came across this page Outdoor Gear Insulation Ratings Explained – The Adventure Poet

with the below table

Type of Insulation	CLO-value (clo/oz/yd2)
550 fill Down	0.7
650 fill Down	1.0
800+ fill Down	1.68
Climashield APEX	0.82
Coreloft by Arctyrex	140 grams/sq m clo = 4.01, noted to be 5% less than Primaloft One
Down-Tek (Water resistant Down)	Similar to Down
DriDown: 600-fill down by Sierra Designs	Similar to Down
Exceloft by Mont-bell	0.68
Marmot Thermal R Eco	0.8
Polarguard by Invista	0.488
Primaloft Eco	Dry: 0.68(0.020 clo/g/m2) Wet: 0.60 (0.017 clo/g/m2)
Primaloft Eco Footwear	Dry: 0.250 m2 C/W/IN (0.100 m2 C/W/CM) Wet: 0.115 m2 C/W/IN (0.046 m2 C/W/CM)
Primaloft Infinity	Dry: 0.57 (0.017 clo/g/m2) Wet: 0.47 (0.014 clo/g/m2)
Primaloft One	Dry: 0.92 (0.027 clo/g/m2) Wet: 0.90 (0.026 clo/g/m2)
Primaloft Sport	Dry: 0.79 (0.023 clo/g/m2) Wet: 0.72 (0.021 clo/g/m2)
Primaloft Synergy	Dry: 0.73 (0.022 clo/g/m2) Wet: 0.61 (0.018 clo/g/m2)
Primaloft Black	0.65
Primaloft Silver	0.79
Primaloft Gold	0.92
Thermolite	Dry: 2.9 CLO/cm Wet:1.55 CLO/cm
Thinsulate type C, CS and CDS 100	0.419
Thinsulate type C, CS and CDS 150	0.413
Thinsulate type C, CS and CDS 200	0.403
Thinsulate type C, CS and CDS 40	0.538
Thinsulate type C, CS and CDS 70	0.455

According to this chart Climashield and Primaloft One/Gold are both pretty similar, with a slight advantage to Primaloft. But both are near HALF the value of 800 loft down.

That being the case a Climashield or Primaloft bag/jacket would have to be near twice the weight of a down one for the same warmth???

I have a Climashield bag and down bag that are about the same weight, and the down bag is miles ahead for sure, hard to say how much 'warmer' it is, but its alot better.

Using Mountain Equipment as an example they have two bags with more or less the same ratings(minus 18C comfort), and the down bag(Kyros) weighs 1200 grams/43 oz and the Synthetic bag(Aurora v) weighs 2380 grams/84 oz. (Products Comparison List - Mountain Equipment)

So this does appear that synthetics will be twice the weight for the same warmth.

I think this is pretty surprising to me, I have not used synthetic insulation much, and didnt think it was that far behind down.

There is alot of brands out there that make some pretty outrages claims to their bags warmth and I think this is good to keep in mind, I dont trust any sleeping bag rating unless it has an EN 13537 rating.

Does anyone else have any real tests/fact to prove/ dis prove this??

 

[Justin_the_EDG]

You're discarding the weight of the face/liner fabrics, zippers, and anything else that would be the same on both. So it wouldn't literally be 2x as heavy. But yeah, that is telling.

 

[JP100]

You're discarding the weight of the face/liner fabrics, zippers, and anything else that would be the same on both. So it wouldn't literally be 2x as heavy. But yeah, that is telling.

Yes obviously there is going to be differences in fabric/zipper types and the bags over all design.

But the insulation is going to have to be darn near twice the amount(weight) to match the warmth, if all else is the same.

The example from Mountain Equipment is pretty good I think, same ratings on the bags and nearly twice the weight.

Would be good if EN 13537 was a standard test that manufacturers needed to do before they could sell products. I know alot of USA based brands dont use it and their temp ratings need to be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[fngTony]

That’s some good stuff to ponder. Not counting material, zippers etc it could be twice as heavy if say your synthetic is even less effective than what is mentioned when compared to 800+ down.

My experience from jackets is some synthetic felt warmer than it should according to that data. I bet the materials ability to trap body heat and block wind comes into play. Another thing is how a down garment or bag is baffled. Too much shifting can make horrible cold spots. Now how much extra weight is added when sewing up baffles? Guess what I’m saying is a well constructed 650 down product vs a quality synthetic that doesn’t need as elaborate construction could actually be pretty close in warmth to overall weight.

Somewhere I was reading that climashield doesn’t flatten out or lose it’s value as bad as most other synthetic.

If primaloft gold and silver have some of the warmest ratings why have I never seen a bag made with it?

I’ve owned several primaloft jackets and pants and have been impressed with quickly they lift up after pulling them out of a stuff sack. Most synthetic doesn’t impress.

I’m becoming more of a down fan lately because of how well it packs.

 

[fngTony]

Would be good if EN 13537 was a standard test that manufacturers needed to do before they could sell products. I know alot of USA based brands dont use it and their temp ratings need to be taken with a grain of salt.

I haven’t bought a bag in a few years but when shopping around I noticed kelty, marmot, mh, tnf and others had the EN rating. Now if the bag wasn’t intended for backpacking (their entry level, car camping stuff) it didn’t have it. Not sure about the cottage companies though WM, wiggy’s, EE,FF, etc if that’s what you’re referring too? I do agree the EN rating should be more widely adopted.

 

[JP100]

That’s some good stuff to ponder. Not counting material, zippers etc it could be twice as heavy if say your synthetic is even less effective than what is mentioned when compared to 800+ down.

My experience from jackets is some synthetic felt warmer than it should according to that data. I bet the materials ability to trap body heat and block wind comes into play. Another thing is how a down garment or bag is baffled. Too much shifting can make horrible cold spots. Now how much extra weight is added when sewing up baffles? Guess what I’m saying is a well constructed 650 down product vs a quality synthetic that doesn’t need as elaborate construction could actually be pretty close in warmth to overall weight.

Somewhere I was reading that climashield doesn’t flatten out or lose it’s value as bad as most other synthetic.

If primaloft gold and silver have some of the warmest ratings why have I never seen a bag made with it?

I’ve owned several primaloft jackets and pants and have been impressed with quickly they lift up after pulling them out of a stuff sack. Most synthetic doesn’t impress.

I’m becoming more of a down fan lately because of how well it packs.

There are a few bags made with Primaloft, but it may be a costing issue? I dunno, most sleeping bag companies seem to make their own synthetic insulation for bags, and use primaloft for jackets mainly.

The main advantage of an insulation like Climashield Apex is that it is baffleless and does drape very well.

Other data I have seen shows that most(if not all) synthetics loose their performance very quickly. Upto a 50% loss in insulation after 6-12months of heavy use(maybe 2-3 years of 'normal'). They say that synthetics break down quickly with constant compression and expansion etc

Where as down stays very much the same for a long time.

I always though down broke down faster than Synthetics but I got it the wrong way around.

 

[JP100]

I haven’t bought a bag in a few years but when shopping around I noticed kelty, marmot, mh, tnf and others had the EN rating. Now if the bag wasn’t intended for backpacking (their entry level, car camping stuff) it didn’t have it. Not sure about the cottage companies though WM, wiggy’s, EE,FF, etc if that’s what you’re referring too? I do agree the EN rating should be more widely adopted.

Most big names now are using them, it has been standard here pretty much since the EN testing came out(which was 2005). So it is only a pretty recent rating system.
Fair enough to not need it for 'camping' gear.

I think for alot of smaller companies the costing is a big issue. I know I am trying to get some projects made up(long term haha) and I have done a little bit of inquiring into testing. It is very costly from what I gathered, and thats a big problem if your a small company for sure

 

[Bl704]

Little more to add here other than the effects of moisture on the insulation. If you have down that gets wet you may be screwed but this is where synthetic (or wool) may save your life.

Me, I genrrally go with treated down, which is light and keeps me warm in all but the gnarliest conditions I'll likely face. But if I take a trip to the PNW or AK, the moisture will be a serious factor which would cause me to rethink my usual 'go to'.

 

[Gatorgrizz27]

Most big names now are using them, it has been standard here pretty much since the EN testing came out(which was 2005). So it is only a pretty recent rating system.
Fair enough to not need it for 'camping' gear.

I think for alot of smaller companies the costing is a big issue. I know I am trying to get some projects made up(long term haha) and I have done a little bit of inquiring into testing. It is very costly from what I gathered, and thats a big problem if your a small company for sure

It seems like it would be a fairly simple test, though it would require some special equipment. Hang the bag vertically in a walk in freezer, insert something that generates the equivalent amount of heat as a 175 lb human, as well as a temp probe. Turn the freezer on and let it begin cooling slowly. When the temp inside the bag drops to “X”, record the temp in the freezer as the comfort rating. When the temp drops to “Y”, you have the lower limit. When the temp drops to “Z”, you have the survival rating.

 

[JP100]

Little more to add here other than the effects of moisture on the insulation. If you have down that gets wet you may be screwed but this is where synthetic (or wool) may save your life.

Me, I genrrally go with treated down, which is light and keeps me warm in all but the gnarliest conditions I'll likely face. But if I take a trip to the PNW or AK, the moisture will be a serious factor which would cause me to rethink my usual 'go to'.

These guys have some tests which are quite interesting
DriDown vs. Untreated Down - Recovery Test - ProLite Gear

Waterproof Down Insulation: is the demonstration valid? - ProLite Gear

I hunt alot in one of the wettest environments in the world, and have been wet(swimming) in my down bag, and actually been warmer than my dry synthetic bag.

Thats just my experience. I would like to try some other synthetic options to see what others are like

 

[Maverick1]

Hi guys
Over the last couple of years I have tried a Synthetic bag in various conditions and been left a bit disappointed, this season my guide tried one and was of the same view as me(cold).

Yesterday I was trying to do some more research into actual comparisons, which is difficult as everyone 'feels' cold differently but there are more scientific methods to test insulation(you would hope).

I came across this page Outdoor Gear Insulation Ratings Explained – The Adventure Poet

with the below table

Type of Insulation	CLO-value (clo/oz/yd2)
550 fill Down	0.7
650 fill Down	1.0
800+ fill Down	1.68
Climashield APEX	0.82
Coreloft by Arctyrex	140 grams/sq m clo = 4.01, noted to be 5% less than Primaloft One
Down-Tek (Water resistant Down)	Similar to Down
DriDown: 600-fill down by Sierra Designs	Similar to Down
Exceloft by Mont-bell	0.68
Marmot Thermal R Eco	0.8
Polarguard by Invista	0.488
Primaloft Eco	Dry: 0.68(0.020 clo/g/m2) Wet: 0.60 (0.017 clo/g/m2)
Primaloft Eco Footwear	Dry: 0.250 m2 C/W/IN (0.100 m2 C/W/CM) Wet: 0.115 m2 C/W/IN (0.046 m2 C/W/CM)
Primaloft Infinity	Dry: 0.57 (0.017 clo/g/m2) Wet: 0.47 (0.014 clo/g/m2)
Primaloft One	Dry: 0.92 (0.027 clo/g/m2) Wet: 0.90 (0.026 clo/g/m2)
Primaloft Sport	Dry: 0.79 (0.023 clo/g/m2) Wet: 0.72 (0.021 clo/g/m2)
Primaloft Synergy	Dry: 0.73 (0.022 clo/g/m2) Wet: 0.61 (0.018 clo/g/m2)
Primaloft Black	0.65
Primaloft Silver	0.79
Primaloft Gold	0.92
Thermolite	Dry: 2.9 CLO/cm Wet:1.55 CLO/cm
Thinsulate type C, CS and CDS 100	0.419
Thinsulate type C, CS and CDS 150	0.413
Thinsulate type C, CS and CDS 200	0.403
Thinsulate type C, CS and CDS 40	0.538
Thinsulate type C, CS and CDS 70	0.455

According to this chart Climashield and Primaloft One/Gold are both pretty similar, with a slight advantage to Primaloft. But both are near HALF the value of 800 loft down.

That being the case a Climashield or Primaloft bag/jacket would have to be near twice the weight of a down one for the same warmth???

I have a Climashield bag and down bag that are about the same weight, and the down bag is miles ahead for sure, hard to say how much 'warmer' it is, but its alot better.

Using Mountain Equipment as an example they have two bags with more or less the same ratings(minus 18C comfort), and the down bag(Kyros) weighs 1200 grams/43 oz and the Synthetic bag(Aurora v) weighs 2380 grams/84 oz. (Products Comparison List - Mountain Equipment)

So this does appear that synthetics will be twice the weight for the same warmth.

I think this is pretty surprising to me, I have not used synthetic insulation much, and didnt think it was that far behind down.

There is alot of brands out there that make some pretty outrages claims to their bags warmth and I think this is good to keep in mind, I dont trust any sleeping bag rating unless it has an EN 13537 rating.

Does anyone else have any real tests/fact to prove/ dis prove this??

Looks familiar to the information contained in this post from backpacking light, page 14:

https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=...F22D!2831&parId=99D830397376F22D!3849&o=OneUp

https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/a-revised-paradigm-for-estimating-garment-comfort-limits/

 

[Maverick1]

 

[Fins_N_Tines]

I have used both treated and non-treated down bags and have not seen any difference in the field. The one thing that always bothered me when people talk about treated down is they say how well it sheds water in a jar or putting it under running water. Even non-treated down does well in those tests. The real test is under compression. Get a piece of down and run it under water. The section you are holding in your fingers wets out quickly even with treated down. Therefore jackets or sleeping bags will wet out if pushed against a tent or leaning against a rock for a period of time. Again, I love down but I just am not convinced treated down makes a difference in real world.

 

[mtwarden]

if you look at Enlightened Equipment for example they offer both Apex and down quilts

here's a comparo of two quilts both rated to 30 degrees, same size and same fabrics selected for both

down (850)- 19 oz
Apex- 22.5 oz

the down quilt has 13 oz of fill, as they are the same design/size/fabric, the Apex includes 16.5 oz of fill- obviously more, but certainly not twice the amount of fill

having owned a couple of dozen synthetic (all of which have Apex of various weights) and down bags/quilts, this jives perfectly with my experience (ditto on jackets/parkas)

a synthetic bag/quilt will need more insulation certainly to match a down bag/quilt rating, but no where twice as much to equal down- not even remotely close to twice

 

[Wyobohunter]

Same experience here. I go synthetic on everything; mainly because I’m allergic to down though. I just suck it up and haul the extra weight. On the bright side, I don’t have to be as paranoid about my insulation getting wet. I also save some weight because I sleep warm. If the forecast calls for lows of 20° I bring my 30° bag. My 20° bag keeps me comfortable down to 10°. There’s about 1/2 pound of weight savings in that.

 

[Beendare]

a synthetic bag/quilt will need more insulation certainly to match a down bag/quilt rating, but no where twice as much to equal down- not even remotely close to twice

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