Ethical question - stickbow

[Beendare]

Hey good post Kevin.

The guys I see that can actually hit something with a trad bow are at the tournaments- they work on their form continually...even the instinctive guys that are good shots have good form. Sure you effective distance is much shorter with trad gear- thats why we do it!

The thing thats most fun for me with trad gear is the degree of difficulty is 10x that of a compound. To be accurate, you have to have much better skills than with a compound. My compound groups at 70yds are the same as my trad groups at 20yds....but I'm working on extending that out to 40.

 

[JCT]

I have been enjoying this conversation, as evident from the number of times I've commented, I hope it can/will continue.
I don't believe it has taken a turn for the worst. I certainly hope my comments aren't the reason that you, (Winter), believe it has.
Not my intention at all if so.
PJGs' statements may read a bit crass but I don't believe that was his intent, I don't know, he can attest to that.
Sounds to me he is trying to make a point about a topic that has come up alot in his travels and is passionate about his views on it.
That is for sure one trait most good, dedicated, hardcore trad guys I know possess, Passion!
Beendare makes valid points and I do believe that most compound guys are more accurate at longer ranges, sure, but I'm not shooting at animals
at those ranges so it is a mute point, just as no compound shooter is competing against long range rifle shooters and aren't shooting at animals at those ranges.
It's apples and oranges. Kevins point on ethics vs accuracy is spot on also.
If you have doubts and don't feel ethical with a trad bow then by all means stick to the compound or rifle for that matter but as PJG was trying to
point out, dont lump us all into your thoughts of ethics and accuracy.
My opinion and I hope you will continue this conversation.
Regards
JT

 

[elkhunter71]

OK I am a trad shooter have been all my life. I am a truly instinctive shooter.I have shot compounds quite a bit also. I can shoot ten out of ten arrows in a softball at 20yds I shoot everyday and have for over 20yrs. I have alot of fellow trad shooters that I shoot with that can hit a softball ten out of ten at 20yds.My normal evening of shooting most of my arrows are shot past 50yds, would I shoot a deer that far NO could I hit him in the vitals Yes.To much can happen when an animal is that far when your shooting a trad bow. They just don't have the speed one needs for shooting that distance at a live animal that can move during arrow flight. I have been hunting with a trad bow all my life and I can honestly say I have Only lost 3 animals in my life with my trad bows and they where hogs that didn't leave a blood trail.

 

[Beendare]

I think maybe where the OP is coming from is seeing a bunch of the trad shooters at the range that can't hit the broad side of a barn- YES, I see many too. I had a bad impression of trad gear for a long time. Then, once I went out with some guys that could shoot mid 400's on a field round....I realized that the technique involved in shooting stick bows just takes a lot more dedication.

I think the reason the newbie Samick Sage crowd sticks out so much is now I can have a new compound shooter with a release stacking arrows at 20,30yds in one hour with a compound- it takes a long time to get to that point with a stickbow.

The other thing hunting wise is- compound, much easier, you can draw as an animal is just coming into range...and hold for 2-3 minutes. This gives you a lot of flexibility as with a stick you are drawing inside of their comfort range...again a much more involved set of skills [unless you are in a tree] Then you have to be able to hold the much more technical form in a hunting situation.

I've killed piles of animals with my compound...very few with my recurve. I can tell you this, I'm like a kid when i kill stuff with my stick...and I'm more of a hunter.....not to knock the rifle guys but its just a whole different deal when you have to get stickbow close. Sure, its more hunting and less harvesting. I was getting to the point where if I shoot something small with my compound its anticlimactic. I figure I will hunt with the stick until I really have to skewer something then pick up the compound- its like training wheels!

Just because you can hit a spot or shoot a 6" group at 80yds with your compound doesn't mean it will be an effective killer at that distance. I've seen many animals just walk away from an arrow in the air that long...especially if they see you first. My buddy guided a bunch of TV Pros and assorted hot shot compound guys on a hog ranch and of the many long shots [30+ shots 80yds or over] only one guy killed a pig.

Some of these guys [group of XXXX bow pros] were grouping arrows in a pie plate at 120yds in camp. Sure some of them got arrows into the animal- but they didn't find them...plenty of misses- wind, angle, animal moved, arrow had insufficient energy, etc- a lot can happen at those longer ranges.

 

[JCT]

Wow, just wow Beendare,
Your bud guideing maybe should've put a stop to that. When I guided, the bossmans rule was 30 yd or less or no shooting
and I still saw alot of flat out misses. Mind you on an elk a clean miss is a good 2 ft miss from intended point of impact.
Most all the misses I witnessed were from the hunters having never been 30 ft from a rutting bull before and just flubbing it do to nerves.
Anyhow, hopefully the OP will join back in as I believe he has legit concerns in his mind and enough good info may sway his thinking.
Worth a try.
Later
JT

 

[MattB]

So long as you do not take the perspective that using a more primitive weapon justifies marginal shots and wounding, you should be fine. Don't become one of the "catch and release" trad archers the owner of a local hog ranch refers to.

 

[recurve shooter]

I'm the newbie here and this thread has been a hoot for me! old guy lurker status is over! So I guess I'm in Elkhunter71's group as far as shooting goes. Archer for 40 years, truly "instinctive" and what some would call a "snap shooter". I call it "conditioned reflex". It's simply a learned dynamic act. Training. I'm not anti-compound, I just think they're ugly. My wife and most of the people I hunt with shoot wheel bows because their lives are too busy to shoot every day. I think 90 percent of the population is too busy to do anything they really enjoy everyday. Also, I think Winter is right about one thing. Most stickbow shooters aren't target archers. Howard Hill said it best when he said "choose hunting or tournaments because the two just don't go together." I know there are two different mindsets because I've lived in both worlds. Target guys think differently than bowhunters.
That being said, I know a lot of hunters that shoot on Elkhunter71's level, myself included. Beendare knows some too. Beendare said he has killed piles of animals with a compound and few with a recurve. I've killed piles with a recurve and NONE with a compound. In my experience you don't have to shoot the "long" shots that Winter is worried about. My farthest was a bull elk at 42 steps. That's a big target. I had no idea how far he was but I had no doubt he was about to die. Experience will put you on auto-pilot, compound OR stickbow.
My advice for guys wanting to learn to shoot a stickbow accurately is to SELL your other bows. As a bowyer I've built over 600 bows and I can say that you can't learn to shoot a stickbow accurately if you keep switching back and forth between bows because no two bows shoot alike or place your hand in exactly the same position. Pick one and find a guy like Elkhunter71 and learn why they shoot well.
I think Winter is a young guy needing experience and I think Kevin Dill is great at putting thought to keypad.
I think I'll check out this trad Rokslide spot more often This is fun!

 

[elkhunter71]

The difference in good trad shooters and not so good trad shooters has a lot to do with mind set. When I take a shot the there is no doubt I can make the shot i am fixing to take. I am never surprised I made a shot .I am surprised if I miss. Not so good shooters wonder OR hope they can make a shot. Sorry if this does not make sense I'm not real good at this putting thoughts in writing. That's why I lurk more than I post.
Happy Hunting

 

[JCT]

MattB,
Not one hunter I hunt with or would ever hunt with has the "perspective that using a primitive weapon justifies marginal shots and wounding"
and if I bumbled into someone that expressed that opinion I would call them out on it and say good bye. That mentality runs through all hunting
methods among a minority (I certainly Hope) but I get what your saying.
I've had rifle hunters see an elk at 500 yds and take the shot, miss, and just say "I thought I'd give it a try" multiple times.
The poke and hope attitude is out there.
Recurve shooter makes good points. Switching back and forth between bows is just an example that some just aren't dedicated to the stickbow
and will never have the consistency that breeds pure confidence.
I believe the hog rancher MattB is speaking of runs into a good bit of newbie stick guys. Hog hunts are cheap and new guys just want to get after
something to bloody there new hobby. Sad but they just don't put in the time before hunting and think a wounded hog is just a hog.
They'd probably be a little more dedicated if they were going on a once in a lifetime hunt.
Anyhow again just one mans opinion.
Thanks again
JT

 

[LaGriz]

winter,
I have enjoyed this thread and the questions you ask are also in my head. I love the trad bow and the feeling of watching your arrow hit just where you are looking. It is truly magical when it comes together. My issue is I elk hunting with a lower poundage bow. I can't just get the accuracy from a recurve pulling more than the low 50# range. I have read about the pass-throughs from other trad shooters with simular equip. I have good arrow flight and keep my broadheads very sharp as this worries me quite a bit. I have made 5 bow hunts to date with the recurve (at great investment of time and expense) without a shot. My partners are far better archers shooting 60# and 70# recurves with good success. They feel the higher draw weight has an advantage if the shot is not perfect. I agree with Kevin's coments for the most part and also agree with JCT that "some folks" just have the ability to get it done. Most of my blunders have resulted in no shot (talking deer here)....not a bad shot. A $600 dollar NR tag in my pocket does't give me privledge to make a poor choice. My equipment and my skill with it, limits my range and I can live with that.
My oppertunity will come as I persist and I do enjoy the journey. If it's a quarting shot at 12 yards or a broad side at 22, I will make that judgement baised on the knowledge that I can make "this" shot. I cringed when the compound hunter when he told me he hit an elk at 90 yds, lost blood after 100 yards.....and missed a 100 yd shot at another bull while tracking the first one? I'm no purest. It's not my bussiness what weapon another guy uses. I am still a gear junky after all. I also know there are guys out there (and on this site) that can and do make long shots with compound bows and also have the sence not to shoot when it's wrong to do so. You seem like a pretty introspective guy and no doubt an ethical hunter. Good luck to you on your mule deer hunt what ever bow you choose will be the right one.
LaGriz

 

[MattB]

JCT, I know many of the guys the proprietor is referring to, and many have been hunting with a stick bow for 20+ years. Ultimately, we should only be taking shots we KNOW we can make. Some people are just more honest with themselves about that than others - and it matters not what type of weapon is in hand.

 

[JCT]

I'm snowed in and keeping up with this discussion.
LaGriz and MattB, 2 more great additions to the conversation !
"honest with themselves" nails it.
(Sad about the guys you know at that hog operation though)
Most every time I hear this topic come up it goes south quickly and you get a lot of childish comments and hurt egos.
This time is very different! Kudos to all !
JT

 

[Kevin Dill]

I have seen plenty of archers who didn't make for good bowhunters. They had the weapon...the accessories...the look. Some shot well in practice settings and some did not. All called themselves bowhunters (and maybe so) but that didn't mean they were good at it. There are few things that make me nuttier than a guy who wants to bowhunt but keeps wounding and losing a significant percentage of animals he shoots. From a selfbow to a Star Wars compound crossbow, I've seen all their users bungle shots and blame most everything for it...except the obvious cause which has its roots in the man gripping the weapon.

Let's get one thing straight: A naked compound bow is not more accurate than a conventional bow like a longbow or recurve. They are all devices which propel arrows and nothing more. In a mechanical shooting machine, a bare longbow will produce accuracy equal to a bare compound. Both bows are capable of extremely good accuracy, or terrible accuracy depending on who is using it. The difference is that a compound (and related accessories) offers many shooting advantages to the user. Each of those advantages is designed to overcome some human limitation and make it easier to achieve accuracy. Let-off, lasers, fiber optic sights, total-clearance arrow rests, trigger releases, stabilizers....and a host of many other things promote greater accuracy with less human effort. I'm not saying it takes little or NO effort; but certainly it takes much less effort to be dependably accurate with a compound bow than a longbow. With these advantages incorporated, a compound is a very appealing choice for guys who want accuracy but doubt they can get it from a longbow or recurve.

What is acceptable accuracy when hunting? A paper plate at 10 yards....80 yards....something other? What do you tell a guy who can't hit a grapefruit at ten yards with friends watching, but shoots rabbits in the eye with his stickbow? If a guy can drill a Ping-Pong ball at 20 yards with his compound, is he accurate? What if he has hit and lost multiple deer from 5 to 30 yards out...not accurate? Does one bow ensure accuracy while another precludes it? Of course not! Acceptable hunting accuracy is really found in the combination of man + weapon + correct practice + experience + dedication. If you cheapen any of those factors you'll give up accuracy under hunting conditions. In the end, I will have ultimate respect for the guy who wounds fewer animals and does so by being the best hunter/predator he can be. He'll probably show a commitment to eliminate variables and unnecessary hardware. He will spend more time developing his personal skills and abilities, PLUS he will give accuracy its just due. He won't be a slave to accuracy though, and will know how to balance it with the other things that make him a good hunter.

I like owning the kinds of tools you can't just buy. Honestly too, I like my shots close where pinpoint accuracy is of no real concern to me. I measure my accuracy by dead animals and not arrow groups.

 

[Beendare]

FWIW,
I've shot with guys that are the best on the west coast....and I've shot with a guy that has been tossed from Africa twice for wounding stuff with his longbow. If you are in the second category by all means seek out a mentor. The bad shooter is the definition of insanity........you know it.
I have a couple of mentors but my buddy Frank- a great shot in his day- has really set me straight on form and technique. If you are scattering arrows with trad gear....its not just more practice you need...but perfect practice.

I shot the 3D trad Nationals 2 years ago with some of the top shooters around and you can learn a lot from just watching these guys. Their alignment and form is repeatedly perfect every time...they bring their arm back the exact same way. If there is any flaws in their shooting its typically a slightly bad release. I know some guys don't like them but thats what you get from shooting tournaments......feedback in a few different forms.

 

[Eagle]

For anybody struggling with accuracy, I highly recommend the masters of the barebow DVD series (specifically the one with Rod Jenkins). If you can make it to one of Rod's shooting clinics, that'll shorten you're learning curve as well, and if you can get some 1 on 1 instruction, even better. He teaches a more gap method along with a more olympic style, but if accuracy and in turn killing animals is your ultimate goal, he'll get you there.

 

[winter]

To bring this back full circle.

I just want to say that the guys that are shooting as well as elkhunter71, you are world class. My hats off to you and your friends. The guys that take the stick to the woods every year knowing they are the best they can be are the ones I truly admire and is what has drawn me to this side of the sport.
I've been lucky to have a great coach (my dad) and he got me started the right way. As a coach right now, I can really appreciate that. I've shot 60x's at state championships, shot a 1400 fita round, shot 557 field rounds, set state records in CO and WI in the compound freestyle class and bowhunter freestyle. I could of continued down that road but chose to challenge myself with the barebow instinctive side of the game. I haven't competed since but have instead concentrated my time and effort on becoming the best shot I can be, getting in shape and scouting these critters.

I feel like I do the best I possibly can. I shoot all the time both at short yardage blank bale and at the range. I dissect my shot under slow motion and tune with slow motion.

Even with all that preparation I am still not up to the level of some of you gentleman. I'm humbled and grateful that I've had the privilege to take two great animals within the distance I set as a maximum. I look at pictures of some of the trad guys harvesting mule deer above tree line and in the open country and am totally impressed. I will hopefully be there someday.

When I started the thread I was frustrated - that even with all my effort, I still wasn't as confident taking my recurve to the alpine to chase those grey ghosts as I wanted to be.

Sadly, everyone that is commenting on this thread is probably the minority in the traditional archery scene regarding the amount of effort and preparation that goes into becoming proficient. In the last few years I have shot a few trad 3d shoots and often leave with a sinking feeling in my stomach after watching the vast majority of the competition. Probably shouldn't be any of my business but as member of the hunting community, I don't know how a lot of these guys can carry their bows to the woods knowing how they shoot.

 

[Vance in AK]

All I can say is that when I was shooting my longbow I set my limit at 30yds. At that range I could hit a 8" paper plate from field positions all day long. I passed a couple times on nice bull elk because I figured they were closer to 35yds. I probably could have made the shot but I set a limit & stuck to it.
The day came I had a bull moose tag & my bull was at 30yds. I had closed to that range scooting on my rump. I rose to one knee, released that beautiful yellow cap dipped arrow with bright yellow fletching & yellow nock & 125gr Modoc broadhead & watched it glide right into the sweet spot. Both lungs & the heart & a complete pass through just at twilight. I will never forget that sight... As a matter of fact I kept replaying it in my mind all evening while I worked on that bull all alone with a mini mag light between my teeth in the lake as it was starting to snow & I was in water up to my waste naked (wanted dry clothes to put on) & shivering...
Pick a line & don't cross it. No matter the outcome you will be glad you did.

 

[elkhunter71]

Winter I have shot at several 3d tournaments and I agree 90% of the guys shooting have no business going to the woods to hunt anything. I try to shoot every day and have done so since I was in my twentys. I have tried to help lots of people to shoot over the years but very few will put fourth the effort it takes .

 

[JCT]

" in the last few years I have shot a few trad 3D shoots" ? "Sadly, everyone that is commenting on this thread is probably the minority"
These are the things you base your judgments on ? Strangers on a 3D course who may be just flinging and having fun and anonomous guys
posting on an internet site ?
Come on.
With all due respect, maybe you should search out some serious traditional bowhunters.
This thread has gone great so far and I don't want to be a debbie downer but your statements just struck me .
Winter, I believe your thinking is miss-guided, not bashing or being argumentative, just my thoughts, right or wrong.
Respectfully,
JT

 

[JCT]

Mr.Dill,
You have the ability to put my thoughts into words better than I.
Thank you.
If your post doesn't clear this discussion up for all I cant imagine anything ever will.
Regards
JT