Distressed Herd in SW CO

Wapiti66

Lil-Rokslider
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Aug 30, 2013
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155
PATHETIC! Clear to see this article is coming from a leftist perspective. Hunters, farmers/ranchers, and climate change are all to blame. Not bears, not mountain lions, not the people that make the rules we all have to follow. Why doesn't the state take any blame, they make the season structures?? They make the management plans, decide how many tags to sell, usually unlimited because of the revenue involved for the department and communities, then blame the hunter for buying the license they put up for sell. Hey Colorado, You can't keep your cake and eat it too! Either give up 10s of millions in out of state revenue or be honest about the situation and deal with it effectively. For every hunter I see on the trail I see 3 or more nature lovers, hikers, bikers, tree huggers...none of which pay a dime to use the same lands. Is it assumed they cause no pressure to the animals because they "come in peace" ??? IMO Colorado is on its way to be the first western state to do away with all hunting, that is the goal of the left. Articles like this put the blame on the hunters and are used to shape public opinion and get the ball rolling in that direction. To top it off they get a couple "hunters" most likely liberal trolls to agree that we are the problem, and we should just stay home for the elks sake. I hope my two boys get a chance to enjoy elk hunting before the leftists get their way with this.
 

Takem

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Northern, CA
Why do they still have a cow hunt at all? I deer hunted in the general area this year. I had a conversation with one of the wardens down there and he wasn't very optimistic about the elk heard. He didn't agree with what the DOW had listed for elk numbers and trends on the website.

The Meateater podcast had a Colorado Warden from Eagle on a couple of months ago discussing the same situation in his area. I don't remember him mentioning hunting pressure during the rut as being a problem. Development, lack of fire, and hikers were his big concerns. Hikers pushing the cows around before and during the calving season was a big deal to him. He talked a lot about the increased bear numbers but for some reason didn't correlate that with the elk drop.
 
OP
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Poser

WKR
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Durango CO
Why do they still have a cow hunt at all? I deer hunted in the general area this year. I had a conversation with one of the wardens down there and he wasn't very optimistic about the elk heard. He didn't agree with what the DOW had listed for elk numbers and trends on the website.

The Meateater podcast had a Colorado Warden from Eagle on a couple of months ago discussing the same situation in his area. I don't remember him mentioning hunting pressure during the rut as being a problem. Development, lack of fire, and hikers were his big concerns. Hikers pushing the cows around before and during the calving season was a big deal to him. He talked a lot about the increased bear numbers but for some reason didn't correlate that with the elk drop.

They did reduce the cow tags this year. I had one and several other locals commented that they were in short supply this year.

As far as pressure from other user groups, I’m not so convinced this is as much a problem as some present it to be. The trails are well established and few, if any other users besides hunters venture off the trails. After the first snow in the high country, or, in low snow years once it gets cold, that activity drops to almost 0. When we say “pressure”, I’m assuming we mean bumping, disturbing elk. I can only think of one occasion that I’ve bumped elk while mountain biking in the high country, something I do a lot of. (I have bumped deer numerous times). However, I’ve certainly bumped elk while hunting and scouting mostly because I was in an area off trail where hikers etc don’t go. Experiences vary, but that’s mine.

The other part of this equation is developments on wintering grounds. There are a lot of wintering grounds closures in and around Durango, but way more habitat has been developed. We should really be considering growing towns and cities upwards instead of outwards if we’re going to consider longterm habitat preservation.
 

Chesapeake

Lil-Rokslider
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Messages
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Good chance you don’t bump elk with your bike cause they no longer frequent the areas with high trail traffic. The elk end up being “displaced” by the frequent human activity.
 

5MilesBack

"DADDY"
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Colorado Springs
It's a little odd......we travel all over Colorado throughout the year. The only place we EVER see any elk while just traveling through an area is in the SW part of the state around Durango. And we see them every time we drive through that SW area......Durango, Cortez, Pagosa, Silverton, Ridgeway......100's of them scattered around the hills. Nowhere else in the state have I seen that, except wintertime around Craig.
 
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Poser

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Durango CO
Good chance you don’t bump elk with your bike cause they no longer frequent the areas with high trail traffic. The elk end up being “displaced” by the frequent human activity.

Totally. But, in some sense, that is a permanent or semi permanent displacement. In a larger sense, sure, that is displacement, but on a day to day basis, it’s not really the pressure cited in the article since the elk avoid those trails anyway.
 

chasewild

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CO -> AK
They did reduce the cow tags this year. I had one and several other locals commented that they were in short supply this year.

As far as pressure from other user groups, I’m not so convinced this is as much a problem as some present it to be. The trails are well established and few, if any other users besides hunters venture off the trails. After the first snow in the high country, or, in low snow years once it gets cold, that activity drops to almost 0. When we say “pressure”, I’m assuming we mean bumping, disturbing elk. I can only think of one occasion that I’ve bumped elk while mountain biking in the high country, something I do a lot of. (I have bumped deer numerous times). However, I’ve certainly bumped elk while hunting and scouting mostly because I was in an area off trail where hikers etc don’t go. Experiences vary, but that’s mine.

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The idea that "non consumptive" users don't have impact on herds is absurd and ignores the literature. This is the exact same argument we faced in litigation with regards to roads -- "animals aren't adverse to vehicular traffic, the animals will use the roads for egress during winter, roads serve as fire breaks, roads and traffic don't have any tertiary impacts such as extending the reach of other trails, etc."

Put a few dozen trails through an aspen grove and let me know how "disturbed" the elk are.

Put a new trail system in on critical winter range and then let me know how many elk are sticking around.

MOreover, you've also posited an artificial timeline by the use of "snow" to argue that activity decreases. No shit. But, again, we're learning that if you screw with the elk up front, then breeding gets pushed back, calve birth gets pushed back, and thus calves don't make it through 6 months or a year.

Then, we've got the unauthorized trails that spider off of every "established" trail that happen every summer. In Durango, "more trails" are chanted with ferocity.

The article is unfortunate in tone and I'll be working on a response. But the one thing I agree with is that our elk herd is not where it should be. But that's just facts.
 
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Poser

WKR
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Durango CO
The idea that "non consumptive" users don't have impact on herds is absurd and ignores the literature. This is the exact same argument we faced in litigation with regards to roads -- "animals aren't adverse to vehicular traffic, the animals will use the roads for egress during winter, roads serve as fire breaks, roads and traffic don't have any tertiary impacts such as extending the reach of other trails, etc."

Put a few dozen trails through an aspen grove and let me know how "disturbed" the elk are.

Put a new trail system in on critical winter range and then let me know how many elk are sticking around.

MOreover, you've also posited an artificial timeline by the use of "snow" to argue that activity decreases. No shit. But, again, we're learning that if you screw with the elk up front, then breeding gets pushed back, calve birth gets pushed back, and thus calves don't make it through 6 months or a year.

Then, we've got the unauthorized trails that spider off of every "established" trail that happen every summer. In Durango, "more trails" are chanted with ferocity.

The article is unfortunate in tone and I'll be working on a response. But the one thing I agree with is that our elk herd is not where it should be. But that's just facts.

But what do you propose? That no one use the Backcountry except for hunters? Ok, sure, trails cause meta- pressure and animals adjust, but then hunters go in off trail and cause micro- pressure to the meta adjustments. Once it gets cold, hunters are the predominate pressure. Go to Chicago Basin in August and then Go back in October for comparison. You’ll be lucky to find one single user who is not hunting in October. Even engineer mountain is trail is predominately hunters in October.

Trying to turn this into “it’s the hikers and bikers causing all of the pressure during hunting season” seems misdirected. Everyone is causing some type of pressure. The town of Durango itself has a very significant habitat impact. But, come elk breeding season, you’re going to have a hard time convincing me that hunters are not the predominate disturbers of elk and elk movements, barring all existing infrastructure such as established roads and developments.

The thing here is that there is likely no single culprit rather it’s a combination of factors, but pointing fingers at the Mtn Bikes running Engineer Mtn trail between June and September as the culprit for a fawn mortality rate seems absurd.

IMHO, The obvious place to start when looking for a solution is this: Commercial outfitters should have absolutely no influence whatsoever on hunting regs and tag allotments. -should not even have a voice in the equation of what should be 100% a biological decision.
 

chasewild

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Trying to turn this into “it’s the hikers and bikers causing all of the pressure during hunting season” seems misdirected. Everyone is causing some type of pressure. The town of Durango itself has a very significant habitat impact. But, come elk breeding season, you’re going to have a hard time convincing me that hunters are not the predominate disturbers of elk and elk movements, barring all existing infrastructure such as established roads and developments.

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I 100% agree that there is no single culprit, but I disagree with the position that hikers and bikers don't have a more profound impact that what the popular narrative portrays.

I don't disagree that when things get cold, the REI recreators drop off the map in the alpine (Chicago basin). What is not true, however, is that those recreators aren't using Phils World in November (pinion juniper country), creating new trails off of Missionary Ridge (gambles oak and regenerated aspens), and cutting up the habitat that holds important corridors and safe-zones for elk/deer. Yes, Durango already has a massive foot print. Yes, golf courses, 8 foot fences, and other factors contribute. But the "trails are fine" narrative is exhausted and unsupported.
 

Chesapeake

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Totally. But, in some sense, that is a permanent or semi permanent displacement. In a larger sense, sure, that is displacement, but on a day to day basis, it’s not really the pressure cited in the article since the elk avoid those trails anyway.

The article you linked contradicts itself several times. It seems to me to be quite poorly written. I wonder why you so adamantly defend it.

"The calves die and we don't know why", "The rut hunters are disturbing the breeding", "90% of cows give birth", "The calves die before 6 month age", "Hunters will need to give up some rut opportunity", "Fish and Game reduced the herd to much", "We are trying to grow the herd, but having issues", and on and on.

If 90% of the cows are giving birth one could assume they were successfully bred despite the hunter interruptions.
If the major underlying issue is calf survival through the first 6 months of life, then one could reasonably believe that Elk hunters aren't a major contributor to calf mortality. Certainly not by disturbing the "rut".

That article just seems to poorly written with to many opinions and very little factual data to support. It sounds like there is an elk population problem but I don't believe that article does a good job or informing folks of it.

Permanent or long term displacing of elk from prime calving and feeding grounds would seem to me to be a large issue.
 
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If 90% of the cows are giving birth one could assume they were successfully bred despite the hunter interruptions.
If the major underlying issue is calf survival through the first 6 months of life, then one could reasonably believe that Elk hunters aren't a major contributor to calf mortality. Certainly not by disturbing the "rut".

That article just seems to poorly written with to many opinions and very little factual data to support. It sounds like there is an elk population problem but I don't believe that article does a good job or informing folks of it.

Permanent or long term displacing of elk from prime calving and feeding grounds would seem to me to be a large issue.

Just because they are bred doesn’t mean it was during the first cycle. If hunters are running around disturbing the rut and causing elk to get bred late then those calves are not well enough developed to survive winter as well as calves born earlier. I have visited SW CO about 2 times a summer for the last few years and have yet to see Elk near the trails I used and have not disturbed any while on trail. When scouting off trail I have bumped elk. When hunting season comes though those elk are pressured a lot.
 
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WKR
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Durango CO
The article you linked contradicts itself several times. It seems to me to be quite poorly written. I wonder why you so adamantly defend it.

"The calves die and we don't know why", "The rut hunters are disturbing the breeding", "90% of cows give birth", "The calves die before 6 month age", "Hunters will need to give up some rut opportunity", "Fish and Game reduced the herd to much", "We are trying to grow the herd, but having issues", and on and on.

If 90% of the cows are giving birth one could assume they were successfully bred despite the hunter interruptions.
If the major underlying issue is calf survival through the first 6 months of life, then one could reasonably believe that Elk hunters aren't a major contributor to calf mortality. Certainly not by disturbing the "rut".

That article just seems to poorly written with to many opinions and very little factual data to support. It sounds like there is an elk population problem but I don't believe that article does a good job or informing folks of it.

Permanent or long term displacing of elk from prime calving and feeding grounds would seem to me to be a large issue.

I’m not adamantly defending the article by any means. I just don’t think that the “us against them (every other user group)” is an appropriate nor logical response to the article.
 

Bulldawg

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Minnesota
This is a bit ridiculous, outfitters don't get a special voice, I don't know why people think that they do. But it does just happen to be that at meetings of populations and changes vast majority of the people there are outfitters. Because we care more than most about the herd. Hell we've offered to help the biologist as much as we can, providing samples, helping with tracking, heck not many groups of people that spend as much time in the woods looking for game than an outfitter.

IMHO, The obvious place to start when looking for a solution is this: Commercial outfitters should have absolutely no influence whatsoever on hunting regs and tag allotments. -should not even have a voice in the equation of what should be 100% a biological decision.
 

elkduds

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CO Springs
It’s unfortunate the article fails to mention the changes to predator hunting as a factor.

It does: "To further muddle the situation, the calves are not surviving the first year of life. Again, no one’s quite sure why. Disease and attacks by predators have been ruled out as the main driving forces behind this issue, Wait said."
 

5MilesBack

"DADDY"
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I just don’t think that the “us against them (every other user group)” is an appropriate nor logical response to the article.

Why not? It has always been "them against us". Why shouldn't we fight back. Colorado is on its last legs, and headed for destruction much like our country is. Liberalism has been and is taking over at a ridiculous rate. If we sit back and accept their garbage analysis, they win. But.......since we are outnumbered by a very large margin, our voice is nothing but an almost silent irritation to them achieving their goals.
 
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Sad state really. Even sadder is they get David Peterson's input on the issue. He's the "Nancy Pelosi" of the SW CO hunting community.
 

gbflyer

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Grew up in W. CO from the 70’s to the very early 90’s. Took about 20 years off, been coming back now for a few seasons.

My observation is too many ATV trails that were once Jeep roads, and too many outdoor warriors on bicycles (apparently year around). But the big one is way too many bears. Wow. We rarely saw them in the past. Now sightings are frequent and sign is everywhere. My old rancher friend spends all summer on the Uncompahgre. Where he saw 3 a summer now it’s 3 a week. He’s actually OK with it as it reduces the elk numbers leaving more feed for the cattle.

Bringing back a Spring bear hunt would be a good start. Good luck with that
 
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Durango CO
Why not? It has always been "them against us". Why shouldn't we fight back. Colorado is on its last legs, and headed for destruction much like our country is. Liberalism has been and is taking over at a ridiculous rate. If we sit back and accept their garbage analysis, they win. But.......since we are outnumbered by a very large margin, our voice is nothing but an almost silent irritation to them achieving their goals.

Go right ahead and contribute to the hyper politicization a problem that can only be solved with scientific solutions. Let me know how that works out for the health of the elk herd.
 
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