jeffpg
WKR
This is the only sensible thing to do, if you care at all about the accuracy of your rifle when you call on it.
How to clean your rifle without impacting zero
- Thread starter IDHUNTER
- Start date
This is the only sensible thing to do, if you care at all about the accuracy of your rifle when you call on it.
cornfedkiller
WKR
Anyone have any thoughts/theories on this:
I got a new gun last weekend, and immediately took it to the range. Manual said for the 1st 10 shots, clean between each shot so I figured it probably wouldnt hurt anything..but I just ran 1 patch with solvent and 1 dry patch down between each shot. First shot was a flyer, next 3 were in a decent group so then I moved the scope to 0, next 6 shots were all within 1". Good enough.
Took it home and figured I'd give it a good cleaning to get all the factory gunk and whatnot out of the barrel. Did several rounds of wet patch, soak, dry patch. Took it to the range again yesterday and I'm still getting good groups, but everything is 1.5" higher. When the first few shots were high, I figured maybe it was just a clean barrel and they would settle back in, but after 20-25 rounds, they were all still right there at 1.5" high.
I got a new gun last weekend, and immediately took it to the range. Manual said for the 1st 10 shots, clean between each shot so I figured it probably wouldnt hurt anything..but I just ran 1 patch with solvent and 1 dry patch down between each shot. First shot was a flyer, next 3 were in a decent group so then I moved the scope to 0, next 6 shots were all within 1". Good enough.
Took it home and figured I'd give it a good cleaning to get all the factory gunk and whatnot out of the barrel. Did several rounds of wet patch, soak, dry patch. Took it to the range again yesterday and I'm still getting good groups, but everything is 1.5" higher. When the first few shots were high, I figured maybe it was just a clean barrel and they would settle back in, but after 20-25 rounds, they were all still right there at 1.5" high.
rileybassman
WKR
You shooting off a bipod vs bags the time before? You confident you had a good zero?
sometimes my technique changes just enough time to time that it could account for an inch or two.
Pay attention to things like free recoil, cheek pressure, head position, parallax etc...
cornfedkiller
WKR
Thats certainly a possibility! And as far as your last statement, I'll PM you to discuss more - I don't want to get the thread off topic any more than I already have.
Every shooter has to decide what works for him/her, if you don't see a problem with not ever cleaning your rifle then that's your business, I couldn't care less, I think it's probably pretty foolish but it doesn't affect me or my pocket book.
Cleaning is a third rail kind of conversation, nobody really agrees on how to do it or how much to do. For me it comes down to my knowledge about chemicals, metals, and mechanical equipment, I don't put my lawn mower away without cleaning is and I certainly don't allow my firearms to get put away if they are so dirty that I suspect that they wont function well the next time I use them.
Chemicals are designed to react to specific things and the old days of thinking that a couple of patches with Hoppes #9 would clean your bore was always just a dream. Modern cleaning fluids react to specific fouling materials; lead, copper, carbon. Kroil is not a cleaning fluid, it is a penetrating oil, it's designed to penetrate between layers of deposits on metal and loosen the materials. Most people misconstrue the black carbon that they remove as being an indication of a clean barrel...it isn't. You can use warm soapy water to remove carbon just as effectively as anything else available, where Kroil is useful is in it's ability to get down between the layers of fouling, it loosens the copper, carbon, and lead. It should be applied liberally to the bore and let sit for several minutes (I wait for at least 30 minutes) before you start working with chemicals that actually break down and remove the fouling.
Before you apply your first chemical for removing fouling you should run a dry patch down the bore so that you don't cross contaminate the chemicals as this can have a negative effect on the chemical's ability to remove fouling. No, it doesn't reverse the effect of Kroil because the Kroil is down between the layers of fouling, it's already done it's job, it's broken the frictional bonding between the different fouling deposits. Fouling is created in layers;carbon, copper, lead. Not necessarily in that order but you get the idea. Because you don't know which order the fouling is layered you have to guess at which cleaner is needed first. I always start with a copper cleaner since I figure that the Kroil already remove the current layer of carbon. If my patch is blue then I know that I've got a layer of copper that I need to remove. When the patches come out clean then I try a lead or carbon removal chemical ( I use all copper bullets so I don't bother with the lead remover), which ever layer is next will produce a dirty patch with the appropriate cleaner. After the next cleaner no longer produces dirty patches then I go back and start over with the copper cleaner. I do this until I get clean patches with each chemical.
Use the appropriate cleaning rod guide and brushes (I use brushes that don't react to copper remover so that the patches wont turn blue due to the brush) and take you time and you can get a barrel back to like new condition. The biggest reason you should clean your bore is that while you may not notice a degradation in group size two things will begin to happen;
1. The bore becomes smaller over time and that will increase max pressures in the barrel.
2. The layered fouling will hold moisture and the barrel will begin to pit and craze due to the effect of the electrolysis action of differing metals.
Personally I don't believe anybody that says that they never clean their firearms and their groups don't get worse, it may be true but I've never seen it but I have seen many, many firearms that shot terribly because they were fouled. I will say that the more expensive, hand lapped barrels foul less than mass produced barrels, it's all about getting the proper finish inside the barrel. All metal has small holes and bumps after it's been machined and those inconsistencies sheer copper off of a bullet as it passes. As that copper sheers off it fills in those voids and bumps, that's why a barrel will shoot better after a few "fouling shots". As the hot gasses and bullet move down a bore some of the surface metal of the bore is displaced (typical bore wear), if you keep the barrel clear of copper and carbon then that displaced metal can fill in the imperfections of the bore and eventually get a bore that doesn't foul very easily and is very easy to clean. A very high quality barrel will actually have those voids and bumps removed through lapping. So yes, some very high quality barrels will shoot very well without cleaning but I suspect that, if proper records were kept over time, even those barrels will demonstrate flyers that never occurred before they were as fouled - even if the flyers are only a couple tenths of an inch from the group's center. I would guess that those of you who claim that they never clean their barrels are using high quality stainless steel barrels.
Bench rest shooters and competition shooters have long ago moved to stainless steel barrels that were custom made by high end manufacturers and for exactly the reasons that I've pointed out - they foul less and stay accurate. Chrome moly barrels just don't perform as well so if you own a high end precision rifle with a hand lapped stainless barrel then I'd say that you could probably get away with a minimum amount of cleaning. On the other hand, if you are just a regular guy shooting a standard chrome moly blued barrel then I'd advise you to clean the barrel when you see your groups start to go wild. In either case, cleaning the barrel will just make it last longer, just like any other mechanical device.
Cleaning is a third rail kind of conversation, nobody really agrees on how to do it or how much to do. For me it comes down to my knowledge about chemicals, metals, and mechanical equipment, I don't put my lawn mower away without cleaning is and I certainly don't allow my firearms to get put away if they are so dirty that I suspect that they wont function well the next time I use them.
Chemicals are designed to react to specific things and the old days of thinking that a couple of patches with Hoppes #9 would clean your bore was always just a dream. Modern cleaning fluids react to specific fouling materials; lead, copper, carbon. Kroil is not a cleaning fluid, it is a penetrating oil, it's designed to penetrate between layers of deposits on metal and loosen the materials. Most people misconstrue the black carbon that they remove as being an indication of a clean barrel...it isn't. You can use warm soapy water to remove carbon just as effectively as anything else available, where Kroil is useful is in it's ability to get down between the layers of fouling, it loosens the copper, carbon, and lead. It should be applied liberally to the bore and let sit for several minutes (I wait for at least 30 minutes) before you start working with chemicals that actually break down and remove the fouling.
Before you apply your first chemical for removing fouling you should run a dry patch down the bore so that you don't cross contaminate the chemicals as this can have a negative effect on the chemical's ability to remove fouling. No, it doesn't reverse the effect of Kroil because the Kroil is down between the layers of fouling, it's already done it's job, it's broken the frictional bonding between the different fouling deposits. Fouling is created in layers;carbon, copper, lead. Not necessarily in that order but you get the idea. Because you don't know which order the fouling is layered you have to guess at which cleaner is needed first. I always start with a copper cleaner since I figure that the Kroil already remove the current layer of carbon. If my patch is blue then I know that I've got a layer of copper that I need to remove. When the patches come out clean then I try a lead or carbon removal chemical ( I use all copper bullets so I don't bother with the lead remover), which ever layer is next will produce a dirty patch with the appropriate cleaner. After the next cleaner no longer produces dirty patches then I go back and start over with the copper cleaner. I do this until I get clean patches with each chemical.
Use the appropriate cleaning rod guide and brushes (I use brushes that don't react to copper remover so that the patches wont turn blue due to the brush) and take you time and you can get a barrel back to like new condition. The biggest reason you should clean your bore is that while you may not notice a degradation in group size two things will begin to happen;
1. The bore becomes smaller over time and that will increase max pressures in the barrel.
2. The layered fouling will hold moisture and the barrel will begin to pit and craze due to the effect of the electrolysis action of differing metals.
Personally I don't believe anybody that says that they never clean their firearms and their groups don't get worse, it may be true but I've never seen it but I have seen many, many firearms that shot terribly because they were fouled. I will say that the more expensive, hand lapped barrels foul less than mass produced barrels, it's all about getting the proper finish inside the barrel. All metal has small holes and bumps after it's been machined and those inconsistencies sheer copper off of a bullet as it passes. As that copper sheers off it fills in those voids and bumps, that's why a barrel will shoot better after a few "fouling shots". As the hot gasses and bullet move down a bore some of the surface metal of the bore is displaced (typical bore wear), if you keep the barrel clear of copper and carbon then that displaced metal can fill in the imperfections of the bore and eventually get a bore that doesn't foul very easily and is very easy to clean. A very high quality barrel will actually have those voids and bumps removed through lapping. So yes, some very high quality barrels will shoot very well without cleaning but I suspect that, if proper records were kept over time, even those barrels will demonstrate flyers that never occurred before they were as fouled - even if the flyers are only a couple tenths of an inch from the group's center. I would guess that those of you who claim that they never clean their barrels are using high quality stainless steel barrels.
Bench rest shooters and competition shooters have long ago moved to stainless steel barrels that were custom made by high end manufacturers and for exactly the reasons that I've pointed out - they foul less and stay accurate. Chrome moly barrels just don't perform as well so if you own a high end precision rifle with a hand lapped stainless barrel then I'd say that you could probably get away with a minimum amount of cleaning. On the other hand, if you are just a regular guy shooting a standard chrome moly blued barrel then I'd advise you to clean the barrel when you see your groups start to go wild. In either case, cleaning the barrel will just make it last longer, just like any other mechanical device.
Formidilosus
Super Moderator
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- Oct 22, 2014
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That was incredibly long, so I’m going to snip one part...
Really? How do you know this? How many barrels of identical types have you shot and cleaned per your normal, and how many have you shot without cleaning at all?
As for “flyers”. There’s no such thing. Every shot is counted. Barrels get pulled when they go over whatever accuracy standard is set for a 3x10 round, 30 shot composite group.
It’s been a slow year as I’m barely over 400,000 rounds I’ve witnessed shot since January. I’m personally on barrel number 6 for the year.....
I stopped cleaning because-
1). I don’t have time for that nonsense. We will shoot several hundred precision rifle rounds a day. The barrel’s shot out in a week on some guns.
2). A static zero is the most important element in hitting things. Almost all off shots come after cleaning. Fouling, checking zero, etc, etc. after cleaning is just noise that doesn’t need to be there. Barrels that don’t get cleaned, don’t change zero.
3). It’s not needed. I personally go through 6-8 barrels a year in centerfire rifle cartridges. Those I work with will go through 2-4. Our barrel life is the same, or better than those who clean. Not to mention they are MUCH more stable with regards to velocity and POI throughout the life span of the barrel.
4). Why do I care if my barrel is “dirty”? If I get 8,000 rounds out 308’s regardless of whether or not I clean them, and the barrel is more consistent when they aren’t cleaned... Why would I?
99% of people will never shoot out a single barrel in their life. Those that do, generally follow some ritual that they were told by someone else that has never proven it either, and none of them know “why” a dirty barrel needs to be cleaned.
Really? How do you know this? How many barrels of identical types have you shot and cleaned per your normal, and how many have you shot without cleaning at all?
As for “flyers”. There’s no such thing. Every shot is counted. Barrels get pulled when they go over whatever accuracy standard is set for a 3x10 round, 30 shot composite group.
It’s been a slow year as I’m barely over 400,000 rounds I’ve witnessed shot since January. I’m personally on barrel number 6 for the year.....
I stopped cleaning because-
1). I don’t have time for that nonsense. We will shoot several hundred precision rifle rounds a day. The barrel’s shot out in a week on some guns.
2). A static zero is the most important element in hitting things. Almost all off shots come after cleaning. Fouling, checking zero, etc, etc. after cleaning is just noise that doesn’t need to be there. Barrels that don’t get cleaned, don’t change zero.
3). It’s not needed. I personally go through 6-8 barrels a year in centerfire rifle cartridges. Those I work with will go through 2-4. Our barrel life is the same, or better than those who clean. Not to mention they are MUCH more stable with regards to velocity and POI throughout the life span of the barrel.
4). Why do I care if my barrel is “dirty”? If I get 8,000 rounds out 308’s regardless of whether or not I clean them, and the barrel is more consistent when they aren’t cleaned... Why would I?
99% of people will never shoot out a single barrel in their life. Those that do, generally follow some ritual that they were told by someone else that has never proven it either, and none of them know “why” a dirty barrel needs to be cleaned.
Man, I dont know that it can be said any better.
Thos that think they know how stuff works believe in barrel break in rituals and checklisted, white glove cleaning regiments. Those who actually do stuff dont worry about crap like that.
Thos that think they know how stuff works believe in barrel break in rituals and checklisted, white glove cleaning regiments. Those who actually do stuff dont worry about crap like that.
Well I doubt it's accurate to disparage people who like to clean their guns as people who 'don't do stuff' lol. I think it has to do with how you were raised and what you were taught to do. Whatever works, right? I was taught to clean my gun at the end of hunting season, put it away and sight in again every fall. I don't shoot for recreation. Anyway I am new to this forum and I had no idea people even debated this topic. Interesting stuff. I'll try not cleaning for a couple years and see if it makes any difference in the gun staying zeroed.
I didnt necessarily mean that in a disparaging manner. You yourself just said you don't shoot recreationally, and by default your personal round count is quite low. Folks who put thousands of rounds a year downrange come to conclusions such as described in this thread. These are universal truths, born through experience.
How you were raised, and what you were taught has absolutely zero bearing on what's factual and what's not. For those who shoot little, cleaning or not cleaning the bore is likely a moot point....but the fact remains that cleaning the bore holds no tangible benefit.
How you were raised, and what you were taught has absolutely zero bearing on what's factual and what's not. For those who shoot little, cleaning or not cleaning the bore is likely a moot point....but the fact remains that cleaning the bore holds no tangible benefit.
Cahunter805
WKR
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Fully agree with a Form and the others. More damage is done by cleaning and more so improper cleaning than rounds fired down the barrel. Especially when talking about a custom barreled rifle.
Form, Ryan
What’s your opinion on cleaning big over bore cartridges mainly carbon fouling and round count on them?
Form, Ryan
What’s your opinion on cleaning big over bore cartridges mainly carbon fouling and round count on them?
Formidilosus
Super Moderator
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Clean if accuracy (really precision) falls off. However, most truly can’t see when precision has gotten worse because they don’t know the true group size of the gun, and will instead go off of feeling and one or two “bad” groups.
I shoot mainly 300 Win Mag and Norma Mag, 338 Norma and Lapua, etc. Ryan I’m sure had more experience with the big rounds than I, but I still don’t see anything that makes me clean them very often.
300 Tomahawk (300 RUM IMP). A bit over 500 rounds, no cleaning.
![iqoheC3.jpg](http://[URL="http://imgur.com/iqoheC3"][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/iqoheC3.jpg)
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Over the past few years I have shot out three 300 Rum barrels and one 28 Nosler barrel. None were cleaned, I can’t say I saw any difference in accuracy until the barrel shit the bed. I do measure the throat every two hundred rounds and chase the lands. I have never had the infamous carbon ring people talk about and often wonder if the “carbon ring” is caused by over cleaning.
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rickjames80
WKR
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I never thought it would be possible to shoot that many rounds and not have some lost accuracy (myth busted). I will admit that I have never shot enough rounds before cleaning to notice a decrease in accuracy. It seems that if you shoot regularly cleaning is probably a waste of time since you are going to shoot out the barrel before the "elements" can cause problems. But if you don't shoot regularly or have guns that sit around for years without use, clean is probably a good thing
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JWP58
WKR
I dont
fightthenoise
WKR
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I, along with most (all?) non-cleaners don’t do break in either.
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It's pretty cut and dried to me, the gun is what it is. Some barrels are rough and will collect copper, but it's tough to think that a bullet passing by is going to make a high spot vs strip the bullet and move on. The bullet is designed to slug up to the bore size after all.
If you're rifle seems to shoot different after cleaning, you're likely seeing some poor finish getting loaded with jacket material.....and it is like not predictable until the process is complete.
If you look into enough barrels with a scope you'll see the marks on some guns. If you clean enough guns with a tight jag you can feel the spots.
Long story short, if your rifle tells you it shoots better clean, it's likely not something that is going to be consistent. A few passes with a lap can probably get you some great results.
Many times its less about a cold clean gun and more about shooter settling in on their form and as round counts go up, form errors do too.
If you're rifle seems to shoot different after cleaning, you're likely seeing some poor finish getting loaded with jacket material.....and it is like not predictable until the process is complete.
If you look into enough barrels with a scope you'll see the marks on some guns. If you clean enough guns with a tight jag you can feel the spots.
Long story short, if your rifle tells you it shoots better clean, it's likely not something that is going to be consistent. A few passes with a lap can probably get you some great results.
Many times its less about a cold clean gun and more about shooter settling in on their form and as round counts go up, form errors do too.
DEW
Lil-Rokslider
Great question Juan, im curious about this as well.
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