“Beloved” Wolf Killed Outside Yellowstone

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Aug 10, 2015
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What makes one individual wolf beloved but not one particular bison? Why do they not cry about it when a ram wanders out of the park into the unlimited zones? Do they protest the elk refuge hunts? How about the deer that migrate to the low country?

It's unfortunate that people put the grizzlies and wolves on a pedestal. Naming them. Pretending to be friends. It's ridiculous. While I have no particular animosity towards either species, I find it odd that so many people worship them above the others.

Is it the story of recovery from extirpation? Or is it just a response to the message of the media fed to the masses. These critters are cute and friendly, right? It's not just city dwelling millennial social media warriors either. People who are genuine outdoorsmen in their own right think this way too. And that Mangelson fellow takes some incredible photos, surely his position has influenced a few.

To make matters worse, it seems that people have trouble looking past their own opinions. Obviously, this applies to the whole array of political and social topics on the news. But it is startling to see how quick people are to disregard facts and dig in based on feelings, completely unwilling to see another side.
 

JWP58

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That comment section is lit! Lots of biologists and ecologists...and nutjobs.


P.s. I hope Yvon Chouinard is weeping over spitfire's "murder"...
 

mtmuley

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Of all the wolves that are killed across Montana, Idaho and Wyoming, one gets particular media attention to stir shit up. mtmuley
 

jmden

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Washington State
What makes one individual wolf beloved but not one particular bison? Why do they not cry about it when a ram wanders out of the park into the unlimited zones? Do they protest the elk refuge hunts? How about the deer that migrate to the low country?

It's unfortunate that people put the grizzlies and wolves on a pedestal. Naming them. Pretending to be friends. It's ridiculous. While I have no particular animosity towards either species, I find it odd that so many people worship them above the others.

Is it the story of recovery from extirpation? Or is it just a response to the message of the media fed to the masses. These critters are cute and friendly, right? It's not just city dwelling millennial social media warriors either. People who are genuine outdoorsmen in their own right think this way too. And that Mangelson fellow takes some incredible photos, surely his position has influenced a few.

To make matters worse, it seems that people have trouble looking past their own opinions. Obviously, this applies to the whole array of political and social topics on the news. But it is startling to see how quick people are to disregard facts and dig in based on feelings, completely unwilling to see another side.

Well said.

Perhaps some of those folks will also start a GoFundMe campaign for this wolf's 'family'...? I bet many would contribute.
 

5MilesBack

"DADDY"
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But it is startling to see how quick people are to disregard facts and dig in based on feelings, completely unwilling to see another side.

That's pretty much the world's playbook these days........ignore logic and reason, and base EVERYTHING off of emotions. That's why so many people get offended these days.
 
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I take a different line on this. While I agree with your logic and perspective, we hunters have to navigate the practical reality of the situation.

Back here in the east a bow hunter killed a black bear named pedals that had a habit of walking upright. That was the key catalyst to shut down the New Jersey black bear hunt, despite black bear populations at nuisance levels across that state.

Hunters are a small minority and the pursuit of our passion relies on the continued acceptance of the broader, nonhunting public. Killing one wolf, or bear or lion in a totally legal fashion but that gets the anithunting crowd whipped up will do more than we know to undermine the hunting community in the long term.

The broader public does not have a deeply nuanced understanding of the ecology or biology and how hunting can fit in as a management tool. They likely never will. They will react based on their emotions which we be triggered by their perceptions of what they see, largely in the media. Perception is reality. It is not right but it is real. It is up to us to act in a way that best manages that reality.
 

JWP58

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There is nothing deep or nuanced about adults naming a wild animal and acting like they're best friends. That sounds like a mental illness. I, nor any other same person should capitulate and act as if their mentally ill view of the world is correct. Because no matter what msnbc says, its wrong.
 
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bsnedeker

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I take a different line on this. While I agree with your logic and perspective, we hunters have to navigate the practical reality of the situation.

Back here in the east a bow hunter killed a black bear named pedals that had a habit of walking upright. That was the key catalyst to shut down the New Jersey black bear hunt, despite black bear populations at nuisance levels across that state.

Hunters are a small minority and the pursuit of our passion relies on the continued acceptance of the broader, nonhunting public. Killing one wolf, or bear or lion in a totally legal fashion but that gets the anithunting crowd whipped up will do more than we know to undermine the hunting community in the long term.

The broader public does not have a deeply nuanced understanding of the ecology or biology and how hunting can fit in as a management tool. They likely never will. They will react based on their emotions which we be triggered by their perceptions of what they see, largely in the media. Perception is reality. It is not right but it is real. It is up to us to act in a way that best manages that reality.

I'm sorry man, I'm not following you...what do you propose we, as hunters, do to avoid situations like this? The Pedals situation was ridiculous also...that bear did not walk upright 100% of the time. Most likely that bear was walking on all 4's when it was shot, so how was the hunter to know that was a "special fluffy-wuffy" that would get people all worked up? And how is anyone supposed to be able to tell a "beloved" wolf from any other wolf? Should anti-hunters be allowed to go out and spray-paint all of their special friends hot pink so we can tell not to shoot them so their human friends don't get sad?
 
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3,158
Legal kill. Complex social fallout. Lots of things are legal to do in life, but will potentially subject you to the ire, contempt and outrage of those offended. Agree or disagree about the appropriateness, but that's 100% the reality. Another growing reality: Any time we hunters manage (intentionally or otherwise) to kill a well-known 'personality' animal. we're probably handing the opposing team more material to eventually defeat us. Anti-hunters have no problem playing the long game, and are actively working to win this fight if it takes many decades and generations to accomplish it.

No...I don't have the answers and I'm not a savant. I'm just recognizing what's happening every time one of us kills a well-known wolf, bear, lion, elephant, etc. If the antis can successfully evoke the simultaneous sympathy and outrage of so many regular Americans (who don't hunt but DO vote) by publicizing the killing of a noted animal....you can bet they'll use that strategy over and over again. I suppose the biggest question we face isn't whether it's our legal right to kill these animals; because it IS legal. The question is whether we are inadvertently recruiting for them despite our war with them. They're beating us black & blue with the effective use of social media, news media, and so on.

Conundrum.
 

5MilesBack

"DADDY"
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They're beating us black & blue with the effective use of social media, news media, and so on.

If you tell a big enough lie, and repeat it enough, the masses will believe it. There aren't a lot of good legal ways to deal with idiots or the ignorant......except to ignore them. No amount of truth will ever overcome the lies that are getting spewed to society these days. These people aren't sane individuals, you can't reason with them. And when the masses believe what they've been told over and over and over......that's all that's getting through to them as well. That's why the media is such a problem. Our nation might as well be listening to North Korea's state-run broadcasts.
 

Beendare

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That comment section is lit! Lots of biologists and ecologists...and nutjobs.


P.s. I hope Yvon Chouinard is weeping over spitfire's "murder"...

Yep^ some entertaining reading...thankfully a few folks that get it chimed in...including a local rancher, screenshot below;[hopefully I cleaned up the formatting enough to be read-able]

willy49Leader1h
I live about 100 miles south of Yellowstone. Thus far this year, I have had wolves kill four of my cattle and rip the hamstrings out of one more, which I had to put down. All on my privately owned property. The value of a springer heifer is about $2500 at auction. So, I have "donated" about $12,500 to the survival of the wolves. There are ample deer for them to hunt on my property, but, they bypass them for the ease of killing a cow.

I anticipate that I will lose about another 7-10 head this winter, another $20-25000 investment in the survival of the wolves.
How much are you freaking wolf lovers investing in their survival? Not a damned dime, that is what. Just a bunch of words from y'all who do not know a damned thing about economics but imagine every animal is like in the Garden of Eden when they all, supposedly, never killed other animals. Bunch of city folks who do not know a damned thing about where your food comes from.

NEWSFLASH: Every food item has a source BEFORE it gets to your local supermarket.

Reply

ThoughtfulVoterLeaderwilly491h
Are you compensated for the loss? I know in some states there are such programs.


willy49LeaderThoughtfulVoter1h
Not for wolves. That was part of the management plan that was rejected by the courts in Montana.


ThoughtfulVoterLeaderwilly491hEdited
That is unfortunate, I know Oregon pays ranchers if they lose an animal.Takes the sting out of the issue. Oregon does a pretty good job of resource management.


TinleyLeaderThoughtfulVoter1h
I think Montana's plan (the courts anyway) was to simply manage the wolf population (and save money), but at the expense of the ranchers who were actually experiencing losses. Managing the wolf population is fine, but those plans don't come together over night. That's why proactive management is so important. The problem is, wildlife managers look at conservation as a whole and not just by individual species, while activists look at the individual species. You can't view conservation that way.


TinleyLeaderwilly491h
Have you experienced any indirect effects from wolves? By that I mean things like lower scores on your cattle and calf weaning weights.


willy49LeaderTinley1h
Not a significant drop in fall weights, still around 400#. However, I have experienced an increase in calf mortality rate from the cows in the field that are the victims of the wolf attacks. The stress of being chased by them affects their ability to nurture their calves the first few months. I do have a higher rate of "orphan" calves where the mother refuses to accept the newborn than the average in the state where wolves are not a problem.


TinleyLeaderwilly491h
The reason I ask is, there was a study conducted (I wasn't on the study but knew some who were) in Idaho and Oregon to determine the true impact of wolves and cattle populations. Stress was one of the indirect effects of the wolf population. That's actually what I meant when I mentioned calf weaning weights, but asked it the wrong way.
 

Rthur

Lil-Rokslider
Joined
Jun 8, 2016
Messages
236
Obviously they learned something form Cecil the lion.
Whether we do or don't do will make little difference to their agenda.
They live in a "Disney" world.
I wonder why the grizz that attacked many this fall weren't named?

R
 

CorbLand

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Joined
Mar 16, 2016
Messages
6,556
Legal kill. Complex social fallout. Lots of things are legal to do in life, but will potentially subject you to the ire, contempt and outrage of those offended. Agree or disagree about the appropriateness, but that's 100% the reality. Another growing reality: Any time we hunters manage (intentionally or otherwise) to kill a well-known 'personality' animal. we're probably handing the opposing team more material to eventually defeat us. Anti-hunters have no problem playing the long game, and are actively working to win this fight if it takes many decades and generations to accomplish it.

No...I don't have the answers and I'm not a savant. I'm just recognizing what's happening every time one of us kills a well-known wolf, bear, lion, elephant, etc. If the antis can successfully evoke the simultaneous sympathy and outrage of so many regular Americans (who don't hunt but DO vote) by publicizing the killing of a noted animal....you can bet they'll use that strategy over and over again. I suppose the biggest question we face isn't whether it's our legal right to kill these animals; because it IS legal. The question is whether we are inadvertently recruiting for them despite our war with them. They're beating us black & blue with the effective use of social media, news media, and so on.

Conundrum.

Well said.
 

jmden

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Aug 24, 2015
Messages
652
Location
Washington State
I struggle with the concept of 'appeasement' (not saying others are suggesting that) in this case, and many others, because I don't think it will ever work. In fact, it often emboldens the 'opponent' if history is studied. They (antis) will never make an effort to appease hunters, certainly not in a constructive way. That is not to say we should be jerks at all, instead we should be legal, ethical, informed and use every teaching moment we may have as there are many folks who really don't have an opinion on these issues and can at least hear a logical presentation of our side of the issue, and many have from me over the years. (Have a conversation with antis if you can, but be prepared to walk away as emotion takes over the conversation.) You can almost see their eyes opened as a they become less blind and a bit of awareness regarding the issue creeps in and starts to crowd out the 'Bambi' concept a bit.

One of my favorite starter lines is a version of, "I prefer not to pay someone to do my killing for me." Many are shocked as they start to think about this. Hard not to laugh actually, but someone had to teach us, so a little patience and humbleness is in order. Won't work on antis but have seen it make many others stop, shocked, and think about it and start a conversation. :)
 
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I really wish the non hunting crowd knew just how important hunters were in bringing back the wolves. There is only one reason wolves have been successful in reintroduction and that is because of the excellent work hunters have done at improving elk populations. Without the elk there are no wolves and without hunters there would be no elk. It is that cut and dry.
 

ramont

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Yep^ some entertaining reading...thankfully a few folks that get it chimed in...including a local rancher, screenshot below;[hopefully I cleaned up the formatting enough to be read-able]

I wonder how many people caught the BS that the rancher isn't compensated for cattle killed by wolves in Montana, we have a Livestock Loss Board and they do compensate for cattle killed by wolves.
A quote from their web site:
To provide financial reimbursements to producers for losses caused by wolves, grizzly bears or mountain lions based on program criteria.
 
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The only real-world way to fight fire is with fire and water. The trick is knowing which to use, and when to use it.
 
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