Does sub moa at 100 yards translate to sub moa past 600 yard?

[Billinsd]

Theoretically I think it should. I'm assuming shooting prone with a bag rest under the butt of the rifle. I'm neglecting wind and other environmental factors. Are there things that get magnified larger than the linear difference in range? I'm talking rifle performance Of course the only way to know is shoot. Thanks Bill

 

[Backpack Hunter]

Not necessarily. Simply put flaws get exposed at distance, but it is a good start.

Esse quam videri

 

[Warren1726]

Yes, theoretically it should. 1" at 100yards should be 6" at 600yards (MOA). But, we don't shoot in a vacuum. So, like you said, any environmental factor or shooter error is going to have a magnified effect at 600 yards.

 

[Broz]

Yes if you eliminate the drift and drop effects of the environment and extreme spread of your velocity is not huge.

 

[Billinsd]

Not necessarily. Simply put flaws get exposed at distance, but it is a good start.

Esse quam videri

Thanks, that's what I'm getting at. What flaws are you talking about?

 

[Billinsd]

Thanks, that's very informative. On the practical side, how could I trouble shoot and correct errors that arise with distance increasing the MOA?

 

[FURMAN]

I am not sure what you are really wanting to know but I am going to go against the grain here and say not necessarily. Just because your load is accurate at 100 yards does not mean it will be at 1000. Doing load development with the OCW or a ladder will help. I have found the ladder to be the better of the two. Tuning at the max distance you intend to shoot is the best way to get the best load for said distance. I can not count how many times a scary accurate load of mine at 100 yards would not repeat long range. Small sd does not alway equate to an accurate load. Accurate loads do not always have small sds. I have seen a few ladders with small vertical with an unimpressive sd and they were repeatable. This is just the load side of it. As stated above shooter flaws will be magnified with distance.

 

[robby denning]

I don’t read all the posts, and I’m NO expert on this stuff, but I’ve shot to 700 and if I do my job, any sub moa at 100 has translated to sub moa to the long yardages.

Probably confirmed this over five rifles and twice that many loads.


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[Billinsd]

Ha! I really missed the mark in what you were getting at. Again, a lot of folks can give some better input on the application side specific to the shooter, but below is a link to a brief list of items I suggested to check calc'd drops to real world. Maybe I'm missing the mark again?

Ballistic profile vs real world data

That's something I haven't really thought about, and another can of worms, but thanks

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I am not sure what you are really wanting to know but I am going to go against the grain here and say not necessarily. Just because your load is accurate at 100 yards does not mean it will be at 1000. Doing load development with the OCW or a ladder will help. I have found the ladder to be the better of the two. Tuning at the max distance you intend to shoot is the best way to get the best load for said distance. I can not count how many times a scary accurate load of mine at 100 yards would not repeat long range. Small sd does not alway equate to an accurate load. Accurate loads do not always have small sds. I have seen a few ladders with small vertical with an unimpressive sd and they were repeatable. This is just the load side of it. As stated above shooter flaws will be magnified with distance.

Thanks, I'm pretty ignorant about what you are saying. I need to educate myself on all this. Do any of you have references of how to do this efficiently?

 

[FURMAN]

Are you wanting to focus on shooting skills or long range load development?

 

[LaHunter]

Not necessarily. I've seen plenty shooters have pretty decent groups at 100, then can barely stay on the paper at 300+ yards. Every factor involved gets magnified as the distance get farther. Rifle/scope system, ammo, shooter, atmospheric conditions, shooting position, etc are all factors involved.

 

[Journeyman]

Before my 6.5 Creedmoor barrel got shot out it would put 5-6 rounds of Hornady American Gunner inside of 3/4" at 100 yards but the ES was damn near 100 fps!

Needless to say I couldn't consistently hit anything beyond 800 yards with it.

But at .70 cents a piece I still use it for positional practice inside of 400 yards.

 

[Billinsd]

Are you wanting to focus on shooting skills or long range load development?

load development

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Not necessarily. I've seen plenty shooters have pretty decent groups at 100, then can barely stay on the paper at 300+ yards. Every factor involved gets magnified as the distance get farther. Rifle/scope system, ammo, shooter, atmospheric conditions, shooting position, etc are all factors involved.

Right, however the factors should get magnified linearly with increased range, I would think. I've been reading about ladder tests and how important quality scopes are. Looks like you could delelop a sub moa load that falls off moa at distance.

 

[FURMAN]

These are probably the best articles. Alex simplifies the process, as do I, for hunting rifles. In the second link skip the comments from the keyboard ninjas and focus on Alex's posts.
Long-Range Load Development
Tuning for long range | Long Range Hunting Forum

 

[Billinsd]

Before my 6.5 Creedmoor barrel got shot out it would put 5-6 rounds of Hornady American Gunner inside of 3/4" at 100 yards but the ES was damn near 100 fps!

Needless to say I couldn't consistently hit anything beyond 800 yards with it.

But at .70 cents a piece I still use it for positional practice inside of 400 yards.

Right ES seems to be the biggest factor for moa going to hell at range. Ladder test load development is where this thread has brought me too. Thanks

 

[davsco]

thinking wind variability at distance makes any technical factors almost immaterial by comparison.

 

[LaHunter]

load development

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Right, however the factors should get magnified linearly with increased range, I would think. I've been reading about ladder tests and how important quality scopes are. Looks like you could delelop a sub moa load that falls off moa at distance.

Not true. Maybe in theory it should be linear, but not in real world application. The shooter is usually the variable with the most variability.

 

[Billinsd]

Not true. Maybe in theory it should be linear, but not in real world application. The shooter is usually the variable with the most variability.

Right, thanks

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thinking wind variability at distance makes any technical factors almost immaterial by comparison.

That's true.

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These are probably the best articles. Alex simplifies the process, as do I, for hunting rifles. In the second link skip the comments from the keyboard ninjas and focus on Alex's posts.
Long-Range Load Development
Tuning for long range | Long Range Hunting Forum

Thanks, great info

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VLD – Making it Shoot |

Since I'll be using Berger bullets, I'll use their 24 shot method first to find the best seating depth. They say seating depth is more critical than powder especially wit their bullets.

 

[FURMAN]

Do a few ladder tests and you will see powder charge has a much larger effect on vertical at long distance. Seating depth must be tested but really just helps shape the group and has less effect on sd and vertical at distance.


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[Rifles And More]

"Does sub moa at 100 yards translate to sub moa past 600 yard?" - Shoot it and see.

I dabbled in the dark arts of OCW, Ladder test and seating depth. I became lost in an obsession to make a small group, smaller and smaller. I lost friends, quit talking to family and became consumed by that last .001 I could get.

All that stuff can lead to good trigger time at a set distance, but it pays more to get out and shoot. Find an MOA load and go do some shooting. Try to find a spot to stretch out and see what you got. Go try a competition, I guarantee you'll learn a lot there.

rfurman24 - we need to go shoot sometime!