Best bullet for GOAT

[luke moffat]

I haven't really goat hunted, but wasn't there a story on here recently of a girl shooting a goat with a 243 using an 80gr bullet?

For sure it can and does work. Heck I know guys that hunt moose exclusively with a 243. Personally I would rather hunt moose with a 243 than a goat. Generally moose aren't on the side of a mountain looking to run to the nearest escape route when trouble arises.

I am not sure if its cause goats have a slower heart rate or what but they do seem to soak up lead better than any thing else I have seen in Alaska on a consistent basis.

A goat in the right situation for sure a 243 will get it done in an ethical manner that allows recovery. But often you don't get the goats on the great grassy plain so bigger holes in the lungs can be better.

Again just my limited experience with goats. Just saying a 243 isn't my first choice for goats even if they do work just fine inside 200 yards for moose.

 

[AKMAN]

I guess I didn't actually weigh in based on your op:
Depending on where you're hunting and what else you're bringing with you, having the ability to carry your .300 down low with an A-Frame, TSX, etc and a Berger or something a bit more frangible up high might be the best compromise. At brown bear distances, the POA/POI will be close enough. I do this sheep hunting every year.
The 6.5 bullets give the shooter the most margin of error with regard to range and wind; in the field, every bit helps, so that would be my choice with something Berger-esque for a bullet.

All that said, for just goat hunting, the 25-06 may be one of the best goat cartridges.
Like other thin bodied targets, hemorrhage is king.

 

[Dcrafton]

Thanks for your input, you have some good points. My 6.5x284 comes in a 12lbs loaded with scope, rest, sling and ammo,
My 300wsm is 8lbs and my fav. Is my weatherby ultralight in 26-06 I reload all. My 25-06 (3308 f.p.m., 100gr tsx 1.91" at 525 yards. Stacks them at a 100yrds.


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[TreeWalking]

I shoot a heavy bullet to reduce wind drift and you should expect wind in alpine conditions. I will accept the increased rainbow trajectory to have a bigger punch upon delivery. I shoot a Win Mag 338 with tactical scope for everything but pronghorn. Pronghorn lacks the mass and skin thickness for the bullet I shoot so go with a smaller caliber and small bullet.

Lots of time at the gun range with the Win Mag 338. Using the same bullet and rifle for several years makes it second nature to quickly predict what is needed to be ready for a quick shot. I keep a ballistics cheat sheet on the side of the gun stock that details bullet drop, wind drift, impact of elevation and temperature, etc.

Use a well-designed bullet and all you need to focus on is getting on target as your lungs are burning in the thin mountain air.

 

[JP100]

Id stay away from bergers. saw a goat shot with them last season. It died but it was not what I would call good performance. They are great at extended ranges but up close they fragment to much.

Regardless of caliber choose a good controlled expansion bullet or a barnes. Barnes would be my pick from what I have seen of goats. Tough critter for sure but hit em right and they will die. Choose the rifle you can carry and shoot. heavy guns are best left in the cupboard

make sure you can get to where he is before you pull the trigger aswell!!!

 

[Formidilosus]

Id stay away from bergers. saw a goat shot with them last season. It died but it was not what I would call good performance. They are great at extended ranges but up close they fragment to much.

Regardless of caliber choose a good controlled expansion bullet or a barnes. Barnes would be my pick from what I have seen of goats. Tough critter for sure but hit em right and they will die. Choose the rifle you can carry and shoot. heavy guns are best left in the cupboard

make sure you can get to where he is before you pull the trigger aswell!!!

So what happened with the Berger and goat? Did it not kill it? Not penetrate to the vitals?

 

[JP100]

So what happened with the Berger and goat? Did it not kill it? Not penetrate to the vitals?

He died but only just made it to the vitals. Was 300 ultra mag with maybe a 200gn I think. 2 shots at 200 yards. Looked like he had been hit with a shot gun. We shot a goat not 10 minutes before with 180gn triple shocks, quartering hard away at 60 yards. Dropped him on the spot, near full body pass through length ways.

The bergers are a great long range bullet. But not an all round hunting bullet in my opinion and experience.

Guys here that shoot long range usually run two projectiles. A Barnes or accubond for closer range and a berger or a max for longer ranges

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[PathFinder]

He died but only just made it to the vitals. Was 300 ultra mag with maybe a 200gn I think. 2 shots at 200 yards. Looked like he had been hit with a shot gun. We shot a goat not 10 minutes before with 180gn triple shocks, quartering hard away at 60 yards. Dropped him on the spot, near full body pass through length ways.

The bergers are a great long range bullet. But not an all round hunting bullet in my opinion and experience.

Guys here that shoot long range usually run two projectiles. A Barnes or accubond for closer range and a berger or a max for longer ranges

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This is the exact opposite of what I would think. After seeing what match type bullets do to mule deer, that's exactly what I would reach for personally. But I have never so much as touched a goat, just watched them. Are they really built that solid? Like a 100 lb Cape Buffalo? I'll likely be drawing my Utah tag this coming year. Hoping to get it with my bow, but I'll pack my rifle in as well.

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[JP100]

This is the exact opposite of what I would think. After seeing what match type bullets do to mule deer, that's exactly what I would reach for personally. But I have never so much as touched a goat, just watched them. Are they really built that solid? Like a 100 lb Cape Buffalo? I'll likely be drawing my Utah tag this coming year. Hoping to get it with my bow, but I'll pack my rifle in as well.

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That's what I've seen of the bergers. Only seen 1 mt goat and 1 Tahr Same performance all round. I have used 87gn bergers in my 243 to shoot red deer with good success but a mt goat is a different critter.

Built solid and tough. Like a 300lb buffalo.
The more I see of Barnes the more I like them. I never used to be a fan but most of clients shoot them and they all ways perform at normal hunting ranges

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[PathFinder]

That's what I've seen of the bergers. Only seen 1 mt goat and 1 Tahr Same performance all round. I have used 87gn bergers in my 243 to shoot red deer with good success but a mt goat is a different critter.

Built solid and tough. Like a 300lb buffalo.
The more I see of Barnes the more I like them. I never used to be a fan but most of clients shoot them and they all ways perform at normal hunting ranges

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I'm a Barnes fan too. Between me and the other guys I hunt with we are about 50/50 Barnes vs match bullets over the last few years on everything from African game and elk to whitetail does. Really haven't had a failure of any kind from either type of bullet. Goats are definitely bigger than I thought then. Watching the ones I've seen here, they didn't look all that big but most were nannies. I've heard that they're tough, I figured a high SD, heavy match bullet would light them up like they do big muleys.

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[Formidilosus]

He died but only just made it to the vitals. Was 300 ultra mag with maybe a 200gn I think. 2 shots at 200 yards. Looked like he had been hit with a shot gun. We shot a goat not 10 minutes before with 180gn triple shocks, quartering hard away at 60 yards. Dropped him on the spot, near full body pass through length ways.

The bergers are a great long range bullet. But not an all round hunting bullet in my opinion and experience.

Guys here that shoot long range usually run two projectiles. A Barnes or accubond for closer range and a berger or a max for longer ranges

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That is very unusual. More than likely it's splashback.


Do you have pictures?

 

[JP100]

That is very unusual. More than likely it's splashback.


Do you have pictures?

I dont think its unuasal to get extreme expansion from a long range bullet and closer range at high velocity.
Sorry no photos, just looked in my diary, shot was 230 yards, 180gn Bergers(VLDs)

My understanding is the VLD is designed to open up at lower velocity and cannot handle the extreme velocity produced by big magnums at close range, they have since changed their bullet a little since this.

dont just take my word for it:
"[FONT=&quot]The .300 RUM does not have enough velocity to make uniform the erratic results that can occur with the current Berger bullet design if bullet weights are not matched to game weights. In the .300 RUM, the 175 to 190 grain Berger VLD bullets can be annealed (blowtorched in a shallow pan of water to prevent lead erupting) and made useful for work on game weighing between 90 and 180kg (200-400lb). The 210 grain VLD is a useful bullet for Elk sized game at long ranges but again, it should be annealed at the Ogive to promote expansion followed by fragmentation. Annealed with a full color change at the ogive to brown/blue, the VLD can be made to produce desirable wounding down to an impact velocity of 1400fps"

[/FONT]This is from a man with far more experience in terminal ballistics than most
.300 Remington Ultra Magnum

 

[Formidilosus]

I dont think its unuasal to get extreme expansion from a long range bullet and closer range at high velocity.
Sorry no photos, just looked in my diary, shot was 230 yards, 180gn Bergers(VLDs)

My understanding is the VLD is designed to open up at lower velocity and cannot handle the extreme velocity produced by big magnums at close range, they have since changed their bullet a little since this.

dont just take my word for it:
"The .300 RUM does not have enough velocity to make uniform the erratic results that can occur with the current Berger bullet design if bullet weights are not matched to game weights. In the .300 RUM, the 175 to 190 grain Berger VLD bullets can be annealed (blowtorched in a shallow pan of water to prevent lead erupting) and made useful for work on game weighing between 90 and 180kg (200-400lb). The 210 grain VLD is a useful bullet for Elk sized game at long ranges but again, it should be annealed at the Ogive to promote expansion followed by fragmentation. Annealed with a full color change at the ogive to brown/blue, the VLD can be made to produce desirable wounding down to an impact velocity of 1400fps"

This is from a man with far more experience in terminal ballistics than most
.300 Remington Ultra Magnum

I'm more than a bit familiar with terminal ballistics as well as Nathan. He has shot a bunch of animals, however he has some misguided/misdirected thoughts on some things. In any case- he's stating that he wants the VLD's to "expand" more, and you're saying that it expanded too much........


You didn't get extreme "expansion", you got complete fragmentation. They do not perform like any normal hunting bullet. Due to the shape and construction, Berger VLD's collapse inward on the nose upon contact- then fragment completely. If weight is matched to velocity they will penetrate 2-4 inches and then fragment violently. They will do it even through shoulder bones. This is t meant to be an argument, it's just that people don't understand how bullets work, make an incorrect choice, etc and then believe the bullet "failed" or doesn't work, when in reality they just work different.


The Berger 180gr VLD is on the light side for a 300RUM, but they still kill well. Why I asked for pictures is that what you probably got was terminal splashback. Imagine a target 20 inches wide and a bullet that will penetrate 15 inches- terminal "splashback" is when the temporary stretch cavity is so wide that "pops" the hide and tissue on the entrance side- think small coyote with varmint bullets.





Different bullets require require different things- go heavy in Bergers and go light in Barnes.

 

[JP100]

I'm more than a bit familiar with terminal ballistics as well as Nathan. He has shot a bunch of animals, however he has some misguided/misdirected thoughts on some things. In any case- he's stating that he wants the VLD's to "expand" more, and you're saying that it expanded too much........

You didn't get extreme "expansion", you got complete fragmentation. They do not perform like any normal hunting bullet. Due to the shape and construction, Berger VLD's collapse inward on the nose upon contact- then fragment completely. If weight is matched to velocity they will penetrate 2-4 inches and then fragment violently. They will do it even through shoulder bones. This is t meant to be an argument, it's just that people don't understand how bullets work, make an incorrect choice, etc and then believe the bullet "failed" or doesn't work, when in reality they just work different.


The Berger 180gr VLD is on the light side for a 300RUM, but they still kill well. Why I asked for pictures is that what you probably got was terminal splashback. Imagine a target 20 inches wide and a bullet that will penetrate 15 inches- terminal "splashback" is when the temporary stretch cavity is so wide that "pops" the hide and tissue on the entrance side- think small coyote with varmint bullets.

Different bullets require require different things- go heavy in Bergers and go light in Barnes.

I think we may be getting a little off topic here haha.
Yes Nathan is talking about 'long range shooting' I am not.

I think there could be a whole new thread on this topic.
Like I said earlier I had good success with Bergers in my .243 shooting deer(Reds). But I would still not recommend them purely for a Goat hunt.
I dont like a bullet that falls apart, even if the critter dies. Hows a VLD meant to work on a quartering shot? 2-4 inches or penetration is not very much at all, have you seen a goat shoulders?

With a good bullet you should be ablt to take any shot on offer, frontal, quartering and so on. Even a texas heart shot.

 

[Formidilosus]

But I would still not recommend them purely for a Goat hunt.
I dont like a bullet that falls apart, even if the critter dies. Hows a VLD meant to work on a quartering shot? 2-4 inches or penetration is not very much at all, have you seen a goat shoulders?

With a good bullet you should be ablt to take any shot on offer, frontal, quartering and so on. Even a texas heart shot.

I have seen a goat's bones including the shoulders. They are dense, but not especially thick and goats are relatively narrow.

I like bullets that kill quick. As long as sufficient penetration is achieved, the wider the wound channel the faster things die. Barnes TSX/TTSX, etc have relatively narrow wound channels.

Berger VLD's penetrate 3-4 inches BEFORE upsetting when using the correct weight/speed. Think knitting needle for 3-4inches then basketball at the end of that. Total penetration of around 18-20 inches.



As far as quartering shots, as long as you can see the ribs and put the bullet there, there's no issue. For Texas heart shots, not my preferred shots and I generally don't like them, but would and do prefer violently expanding bullets to deep penetrators. With a TSX you are counting on that bullet reaching the lungs through the stomach. If it doesn't (and I have seen about half make it and half get stopped by the guts) then you are dealing with a gut shot animal. Most of the time requiring a finishing shot.

With heavy VLD's, AMAX's, etc, the same shot will not reach the vitals usually, but they will destroy a lot of tissue, the spine and generally break the hips, immobilizing the animal and allowing for an imeadiate follow up shot.



For sure sure there are different ways to do it, but it always struck me as odd that goats are relatively thin, hardy animals, and people always say how hard they are to kill- Which they usually translates to "needs tough bullets". On an animal that size and build a heavy TSX is not going to create a very big wound. After talking with several people that have killed quite a few goats and seen a bunch killed with different bullets, they have the same opinion. Bigger wound, faster death.

 

[JP100]

I have seen a goat's bones including the shoulders. They are dense, but not especially thick and goats are relatively narrow.

I like bullets that kill quick. As long as sufficient penetration is achieved, the wider the wound channel the faster things die. Barnes TSX/TTSX, etc have relatively narrow wound channels.

Berger VLD's penetrate 3-4 inches BEFORE upsetting when using the correct weight/speed. Think knitting needle for 3-4inches then basketball at the end of that. Total penetration of around 18-20 inches.



As far as quartering shots, as long as you can see the ribs and put the bullet there, there's no issue. For Texas heart shots, not my preferred shots and I generally don't like them, but would and do prefer violently expanding bullets to deep penetrators. With a TSX you are counting on that bullet reaching the lungs through the stomach. If it doesn't (and I have seen about half make it and half get stopped by the guts) then you are dealing with a gut shot animal. Most of the time requiring a finishing shot.

With heavy VLD's, AMAX's, etc, the same shot will not reach the vitals usually, but they will destroy a lot of tissue, the spine and generally break the hips, immobilizing the animal and allowing for an imeadiate follow up shot.



For sure sure there are different ways to do it, but it always struck me as odd that goats are relatively thin, hardy animals, and people always say how hard they are to kill- Which they usually translates to "needs tough bullets". On an animal that size and build a heavy TSX is not going to create a very big wound. After talking with several people that have killed quite a few goats and seen a bunch killed with different bullets, they have the same opinion. Bigger wound, faster death.

So you never seen a goat alive nor dead.
Ain't no body describes a goat as narrow that's seen one.
They are short stocky and muscular. That's a fact.

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[Formidilosus]

I already told you I have. Have you ever measured a goat from side to side? Take the hair away and they are narrow, relatively speaking.

 

[Yellowknife]

I already told you I have. Have you ever measured a goat from side to side? Take the hair away and they are narrow, relatively speaking.

I almost hate to step in here with my limited experience, but I've got to agree with Form on this one. Goats are certainly deep chested and short legged, but I guess "thick" isn't a word that crossed my mind. I particularly looked at how they were constructed last year when skinning three of them. Although visually much blockier with the heavy coat, once you pealed all that fur off, the chests didn't appear any thicker (quite possible narrower) than the blacktail buck we shot on the same trip. Slab sided is how I would describe them. I guess my impression and observation was that they were built with a solid skeleton system, but I didn't see anything that would require a deep penetrating bullet. Nor did I see any bones that wouldn't be easily broken with common calibers and standard projectiles.

They are certainly "tough". I proved that #3, which nearly got his revenge on us. But I think "tough" in this case refers to being highly resistant to CNS disruption, shock and blood loss, and with a strong ability to maintain their footing.

Got compete penetration on this one with a 168 berger from an '06. Was dead when he got to the bottom of the hill.



Maybe a better view of width:



This one took the bullet standing, but bled out and rolled over a few seconds later from a 150 gr .277 NPT. My partner had hedged his bets with a bullet that was both rapid expanding and penetrating. Not a bad choice I think.



Both of those in full winter coat, which certainly adds a lot of volume to the animals.

I did find the skeleton structure quite interesting. Very different build that most animals I hunt. Cool animals.

Hoping to do goat again in 2017.

 

[luke moffat]

I have seen a goat's bones including the shoulders. They are dense, but not especially thick and goats are relatively narrow.

I like bullets that kill quick. As long as sufficient penetration is achieved, the wider the wound channel the faster things die. Barnes TSX/TTSX, etc have relatively narrow wound channels.

Berger VLD's penetrate 3-4 inches BEFORE upsetting when using the correct weight/speed. Think knitting needle for 3-4inches then basketball at the end of that. Total penetration of around 18-20 inches.



As far as quartering shots, as long as you can see the ribs and put the bullet there, there's no issue. For Texas heart shots, not my preferred shots and I generally don't like them, but would and do prefer violently expanding bullets to deep penetrators. With a TSX you are counting on that bullet reaching the lungs through the stomach. If it doesn't (and I have seen about half make it and half get stopped by the guts) then you are dealing with a gut shot animal. Most of the time requiring a finishing shot.

With heavy VLD's, AMAX's, etc, the same shot will not reach the vitals usually, but they will destroy a lot of tissue, the spine and generally break the hips, immobilizing the animal and allowing for an imeadiate follow up shot.



For sure sure there are different ways to do it, but it always struck me as odd that goats are relatively thin, hardy animals, and people always say how hard they are to kill- Which they usually translates to "needs tough bullets". On an animal that size and build a heavy TSX is not going to create a very big wound. After talking with several people that have killed quite a few goats and seen a bunch killed with different bullets, they have the same opinion. Bigger wound, faster death.

Likely something to that. Never been a big Barnes fan for that reason. Do you think something like an interlock or Nosler Ballstic tip would be a better option than an Accubond or Scirocco in the case of something like this?

 

[Bruce Culberson]

I haven't really goat hunted, but wasn't there a story on here recently of a girl shooting a goat with a 243 using an 80gr bullet?

Sounds like an urban legend! What kinda dude would send his children out for goats way under-gunned?

Kidding aside I agree with others - goats can seem to take a shot or two and still be standing. These are the goat kills I've been in on (in order):

7-08 with 140gr Federal hot cores 100 yards - 1 shot to boiler room...went down in a couple seconds.

7mm rem mag with 150gr Federals loaded with hotcores 300 yards - 1 shot quatering too, goat was bedded at the shot he pushed his frontend up then rolled down the hill.

Archery hard quatering away, 1 shot - goat travelled 25 yards... up into some nasty stuff.

300 WSM 140gr Partition 250 yards first shot to boiler knocked goat down, he got up and the next shot dropped him right away.

30-06 with 165gr SST 250 yards - head shot.

7-08 with 139gr Interlocks 355 yards - first shot to boiler room goat turned from running up the cliff to back down, 2nd shot frontal dropped him.

7-08 with 140gr Accubond 250 yards - 1 shot to boiler dropped immediately.

243 with 100gr Partition 180 yards - 1 shot broaside lungs goat travelled 10-12 yards then stood staggering facing too, 2nd shot frontal dropped him.

243 with 80gr TTSX at 250 yards - 1st shot broadside, goat took 3 or 4 steps then was standing facing too, but we were way above, 2nd shot went down thru the spine.

In my somewhat limited experience (2 moose, 3 deer, 1 goat and a few other critters shot by friends) the TTSX/TSX do kill a little bit slower than softer bullets. I do like them in the 243 though since they most always leave an exit wound just in case you need to follow the blood trail.

Back to the original topic I would recommend taking either the 300WSM or 25-06, leave the heavy gun at home. If shooting a soft bullet like Interlock, Ballistic tip, Accubond or Partition go with a heavier one, if going with a TSX/TTSX, e-tip, ect - go light and push them fast.

Bruce