Frustrating Trip to the Rock Pit

[sabotloader]

It was a little warmer than I wanted it to be but decided to go to the Rock Pit this morning. Still do not feel good about shooting at either farm yet - to much dry stubble in the fields.

I wanted to work an a load and sabotless shoot in my Knight Western ULite. I can not use it here in Idaho but hunters in Oregon and Washington - heck and many other progressive States.

When I got to the rock pit got stuff out of the truck and started my setup. Next I grabbed my usual 6 clay pigeons and walked them out to the rock wall. Climbed up the loose rock at the bottom of the rock wall, grabbed the first bird went to place it on the wall and it slid off the rock and busted! That should have been a good indication what the morning was going to be like!!! Placed the other 5 birds on the wall without incident.

Got back to the truck and loaded up the first load. 120 grains of T7-2f by volume, then a MMP-Ballistic Sub Bridge, and finally a knurled Barns 50x275 gr. MZ-Expander. I have to order the 54cal MZ-Expander and then discard the sabot that comes with it.

This is not the the Expander I shot but the process of knurling was completed as shown in this picture. You do have to do some practicing to figure out the amount knurling lift you will need for your barrel.

Got the first load completed got on the portable bench, placed the Fire Sight bead just slightly under the bird and took the first shot - really nice smoke cloud! And in slow motion I watched the bird roll of it perch fall down and break... I really didn't know where the bullet hit, assumed it was high so load and on the 2nd shot only this time I held lower on the next bird - This time I didn't even scare the bird it remained on its perch.

Ok so now I am really getting frustrated... load one more place the bead in the middle of the bird - same results...

I hated to do this but I decided I need to shoot paper and see what was really going on. My problem became clear after shooting paper.

Made the sight adjustment... and it is not easy it is somewhat of a guess with the NECG as it is a what I call a 'Slide and Glide' sight.

Of course I have adjusted the sight before so using the directions to estimate how far to turn the set screws - I completed the operation with confidence I would be very close to what I needed.

It was really starting to warm up so I decided to move from the paper back to the 'birds on the wall' So I loaded up and returned to shooting birds... this was the setup...

Work Bench setup

The rest of the morning and the rest of the birds went really well

I do need to make another trip shooting paper. I did not adjust the elevation this trip and I really want to be near 2.75" high at 100 + check my windage adjustment.

 

[lyle_destroys]

Ive never seen knurling bullets before, whats the theory behind this?

 

[sabotloader]

Ive never seen knurling bullets before, whats the theory behind this?

The reason I knurl the bullet.... Most 50 cal bullets will not fit the bore of a ML correctly. Remember most of then come sized to fit a 54 cal rifle with a sabot. I am trying to shoot them in a 50 cal. ML without a sabot. In most cases the will simply just fall down the bore to the breech.
so I try to make a little larger so that the will act a bore riding bullet. And the thing is they do not have to be a tight as one might think if you use a wad of some sort under the bullet and on top of the powder.

I wrote this response several months ago and will use it to hopefully answer some of your questions.


I have been doing a lot of sabotless shooting in the last couple of years and I started much as you did wondering.

I certainly am not in the class that Jeff is (Bestill) but I have found out some thing along the way... If you are shooting a regular rifle bullet and in my case I am shooting a lot of Lehigh solid brass or Barnes solid copper bullets. These bullets will NOT obturate to the bore of the barrel so some sort of gas seal is needed. With a 50 cal. rifle I really prefer a MMP Sub-Base under the bullet. I have also used a fiber shot card from Track of the Wolf - it is (.510x.125) and works very well as a gas seal. When shooting a 45 since there is not a sub-base available I do use a Shot Card in that caliber 100%

When I started this process I talked to Lehigh Dave about how tight I need to get the bullet. He directed to a bullet maker named Lutz Moeller who makes bullets that just ride the lands of the bore. After reading some of his thoughts and Dave Sharing his - I have discovered that bullet does not have to be that tight. As long as it rides the lands of the bore. all the way down the bore. The only thing I can tell you is that I am loading bullets that move down the bore easier than a normal sabot load. And I am getting very good accuracy.

One thing that Bestill mention - make sure you get quality files.

I have posted several threads on here about sabotless shooting - you might do a site search for sabotless shooting with sabotloader as the author.

Here is one of the later threads

Knights & sabotless Lehigh/Bloodlines in the Rock Pit - Modern Muzzleloader

Found another one...

A couple of forum members asked me how do I go about knurling bullets. It is really not very scientific - it just works for me.

I have been knurling bullets for the last couple years just using a couple of files to increase the diameter of a given bullet to allow it to load full in my ML's.

It all actually started with 0.5045 Bull Shop lead conicals that I was trying to use in my White Ultra-Mag. In my rifle I was a uncomfortable with the ease that they loaded and I worried about that heavy bullet possibly falling off the powder in the bore. The simple solution was to make the OD of the bullet slightly larger than it was. After asking some questions on different forums - I was told the easy answer is 'knurl' them between to files to create a lift in diameter by displacing some of the lead material. Running the bullets between two course files created the lift I needed. Knurling lead was really easy and best of all it was very forgiving. Even when I got to great of a lift loading pushing the soft lead through the crown was not a problem at all. Then the ignition of the powder would cause the soft lead bullet to obturate even more to the bore.

A few years ago in an attempt to shoot bull bore copper/lead bullets in the 50 became an interest. With the advent of the Desert Eagle and other newer 50 cal. weapons the availability of quality 50 cal. bullets became even greater. And there were some really good 50 cal. bullets on the market. Recently I have re-newed my interest and stated with Speer 50 cal. 300 grain deep curls. After that effort I turned to Barnes XPB pistol bullets. These all copper bullets required me to change files to a mill file to get a more even knurl and then with the Lehigh brass bullet I then changed to a General Purpose flat file that a bit more aggressive than the General Purpose Mill file.

This was the Mill file that I am using for Copper-lead or copper bullets to create the lift.



To get the lift needed on the harder brass bullets I changed to a slightly more course file using a General Purpose Flat file



How much lift do really need? that really depends on the size of your bore and the bullet you choose to use in it. I would suggest to you that the bullet does not have to fit as tight as you might think to achieve stabilization and accuracy.

When I talked to Lehigh Dave about this project he suggested the a gentleman along time ago produced bullet that were called 'bore riders' they made very little contact with the bore and were extremely accurate. You might do a search for Lutz Moeller and look at his bullet offerings.

Using his general thoughts I knurl the Barnes and Lehigh to work pretty much on his principles. I do add a MMP Ballistic Sub-Bridge under the bullet (essentially a wad) to trap the gas behind the bullet. For myself the sub-bridge or sub-base provides a more positive gas seal than a wool wad or even a shot card might especially against the physical heat created by T7 or BH.

so how do I do it...

I place a piece of leather on a countertop and the file on top of the leather. The leather holds the bottom file in place. Then place the bullet to be knurled on the bottom file and the second file on top of the bullet.



Then with heavy pressure applied to both ends of the top file I roll the bullet between the two files. The pressure displaces copper or brass creating a lift on the surface of the bullet.

These are Lehigh's that have undergone the lifting process.



How many times you roll the bullet depends on the amount of lift you need. Stand the rifle by you knurling station. Remove the breech plug and drop the new bullet through. If it passes through rapidly to may need a lot of lift requiring more rolling. my suggestion is roll the bullet 3-4" on the files once and test it in the bore. You want enough lift that it will not pass through the crown of the bore.

When placing the bullet on the bottom file place it so the heel of bullet does not get knurled.



Place the top file on the bullet again with the heel extended out from between the files.



Leaving the heel clean will allow you to set the bullet in the crown of the bore and make it easier to push down either with a short starter or you ram rod. I believe it is very important to have knurling close to the heel of the bullet and all the way across the ogive of the bullet so that it goes down the bore evenly. This extend knurl will also insure the grip on the lands of the bore. And again heavy loading pressure is not needed for stabilization.

Place both hands on the top file and apply a heavy downward pressure on the bullet and roll it forward between the two files. Check the bullet in the crown and repeat the process until the needed amount of lift is achieved.

This bullet was rolled 3 times and placed in the crown it stopped going down at the knurling and is ready to be pushed through the crown,



I would also suggest you do not to do many bullets until you are actually able to check the bullet by pushing it all the way through the bore.

Also I would start with copper bullets as they are more forgiving and will allow you to push a heavily knurled bullet through the bore especially with the aid of a short starter to get it through the crown.

Hope this helps some who might try this process.

 

[lyle_destroys]

Thats a great writeup, thanks for the info and this is something I may look into for my 50 cal.