$100 for CO PP?

[Jimss]

What I'm saying is that I like NV's system because everyone has a chance to draw a tag every year. Colo's draw system for deer, antelope, elk, bear, and turkey only allow those with highest pref pts to draw tags! This pref pt system is exactly what you are talking about.....only the "greedy" people that have max pts draw tags! I wonder if NV's system is a little fairer to everyone that applies? I can understand how the 2 posts above must HATE the current Colo pref pt system for the species listed above? Is it "fair" for tags to only go to those with max pref pts?

Those that are skeptics about a NV system for sheep, goat, and moose may want to take a look at the NV draw stats. Most NV tags are super high demand with gobs of applicants vying for only a few tags. Everyone that applies in NV has a chance to draw a tag every year. Even in the toughest units to draw there are hunters that draw high demand tags each year with 0 to 5 bonus pts. That seems like a pretty fair system to me?

Is it "fair" for an applicant that invests 20 years at $100/year to apply have the same draw odds as someone just starting off applying? Those that apply 1 year have only invested $100. Do you think it's fair that a guy that's only applied for 1 year has the same chance to draw a tag as a guy that has invested 20 years and over $2000 to drawing a tag? My wife would likely cut me off from hunting if she knew I was throwing $200/year to the wind and had the same chance of drawing a coveted tag 20 years from now! According to the post above someone that's applied 20 years is being "greedy" if they should stand a little better chance to draw high demand tags? It's impossible to please everyone but at least with NV's bonus pt system everyone has a chance to draw every year!

 

[realunlucky]

What I'm saying is that I like NV's system because everyone has a chance to draw a tag every year. Colo's draw system for deer, antelope, elk, bear, and turkey only allow those with highest pref pts to draw tags! This pref pt system is exactly what you are talking about.....only the "greedy" people that have max pts draw tags! I wonder if NV's system is a little fairer to everyone that applies? I can understand how the 2 posts above must HATE the current Colo pref pt system for the species listed above? Is it "fair" for tags to only go to those with max pref pts?

Those that are skeptics about a NV system for sheep, goat, and moose may want to take a look at the NV draw stats. Most NV tags are super high demand with gobs of applicants vying for only a few tags. Everyone that applies in NV has a chance to draw a tag every year. Even in the toughest units to draw there are hunters that draw high demand tags each year with 0 to 5 bonus pts. That seems like a pretty fair system to me?

Is it "fair" for an applicant that invests 20 years at $100/year to apply have the same draw odds as someone just starting off applying? Those that apply 1 year have only invested $100. Do you think it's fair that a guy that's only applied for 1 year has the same chance to draw a tag as a guy that has invested 20 years and over $2000 to drawing a tag? My wife would likely cut me off from hunting if she knew I was throwing $200/year to the wind and had the same chance of drawing a coveted tag 20 years from now! According to the post above someone that's applied 20 years is being "greedy" if they should stand a little better chance to draw high demand tags? It's impossible to please everyone but at least with NV's bonus pt system everyone has a chance to draw every year!

The system didn't change so now it's suddenly unfair because it sometimes rewards those that have invested less? Sounds pretty much like a entitlement argument. Less resource and more applications should equal less opportunity for everyone.
In a true preference point system no new comers have a chance to draw 0% opportunity. Squared point systems barely offer draw opportunity above 0 so while a chance in hell isn't much it's still a chance. There is a chance to push that though look at South Dakota did it last year.
I do think when the top shouts it's unfair the system must change. That must signal the majority who are at the bottom to also sound off. What's fair guess it's all your perspective.

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[Coveyleader]

One thing that is common is hunters love to whine about DOWs, Tags, etc. There isn't one system that is "Great" out there, they all suck. CO had a real good system going until they opened the flood gates last year. Now, they are going to charge "X" amount to slow that mistake down. If I could attend the BGSS meeting in a week or so I would ask the comission/DOW "What the heck is going on?". There seems to be no direction at all.

 

[wapitibob]

Everybody with points bitches when lower point apps get drawn. The next tier of complainers are the ones who drew and now want the draw to change 'cause it's "not fair" that they have no chance to draw again, being at the bottom of the points game.

 

[realunlucky]

It's true every time I don't draw I think the system is rigged against me.

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[Jimss]

I sure wish critics would take a look at NV's draw stats. Until you actually look at draw stats you have no idea what I've been talking about! I would add an example to this web but here is a link to look at the NV resident elk draw stats. Do yourself a favor and take a look at this link:
http://www.ndow.org/uploadedFiles/n... Point and Application Trend - Res - 2017.pdf

If you notice, there are usually more applicants that draw high demand elk tags with few vs high bonus pts! Like I've been saying all alone, everyone has a chance to draw tags every year! I don't think anyone with high or low pref pts belly-ache with such a draw system because it gives everyone a pretty fair chance to draw no matter how many years you've applied!

 

[Coveyleader]

Believe it or not, Colorado's weighted systems worked just fine prior to the collapse of up front money. The beauty is once you're at 3, you have a chance. On paper NV looks ok, but I don't know the in's and out's of that system even though I do put in for NV and the up front license fee is painful. Simply browsing over some of those numbers, like CO, it seems like the the people who drew with 0-1 points did so due to the fact there were so many people in that pool.

 

[realunlucky]

I sure wish critics would take a look at NV's draw stats. Until you actually look at draw stats you have no idea what I've been talking about! I would add an example to this web but here is a link to look at the NV resident elk draw stats. Do yourself a favor and take a look at this link:
http://www.ndow.org/uploadedFiles/n... Point and Application Trend - Res - 2017.pdf

If you notice, there are usually more applicants that draw high demand elk tags with few vs high bonus pts! Like I've been saying all alone, everyone has a chance to draw tags every year! I don't think anyone with high or low pref pts belly-ache with such a draw system because it gives everyone a pretty fair chance to draw no matter how many years you've applied!

Can we agree that having a chance and being FAIR aren't one and the same?
All years aren't equal in a squared system that makes it UNFAIR --- applying 5 years ago doesn't make that year 25 times more valuable or does it? I see you feel you should be rewarded for your loyalty I understand that position but call it what it is entitlement.
People use to believe that if they waited thier turn eventually they would get to the front of the line and draw. It's now evidence that the demand is far greater than the resource and just waiting will make lucky applicants to old or even cut whole generations out of the possibility drawing. People are finally waking up to the grim reality of how points systems work and how slim the opportunity to draw good tags really are.
To those who say **** the new guy I say again remember those new guys far out number you.

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[5MilesBack]

I don't believe that everything has to be equal, or even should be "fair" in life. That's too much like the communistic "distribution of wealth" ideology. I think it should be like everything else in life.......if you put in the time, effort, and money you will eventually be rewarded for those efforts. But some get rewarded earlier, and some get rewarded later, and some just get crapped on their entire lives. That's life. But if you're in that last category......probably time to change things up a bit.

 

[MallardSX2]

I dont see the Deer,elk,antelope point fees? Am I looking right at them?

Also, If I may chime in. Guys just getting into the points game should accept the fact that those guys with 25 preference points have put a lifetime into drawing those tags and deserve their place in line.

Sorry for your luck and once again we were born in the wrong era.

Save your points and take your place in line like they did or go to the house. Its how it is.

Pure preference is the fairest way on a system that was designed to work that way. You cant just change it half way through because people are sad they are not getting drawn.

 

[realunlucky]

I don't believe that everything has to be equal, or even should be "fair" in life. That's too much like the communistic "distribution of wealth" ideology. I think it should be like everything else in life.......if you put in the time, effort, and money you will eventually be rewarded for those efforts. But some get rewarded earlier, and some get rewarded later, and some just get crapped on their entire lives. That's life. But if you're in that last category......probably time to change things up a bit.

The current system already gives advantage to those with more wieghted points, so it's not a question of fairness. It's simply a question if those that wait longer deserve an even bigger advantage than the current system shows. Feeling one or the other on the matter doesn't upset the balance of the universe.
We are in full agreement that life isn't FAIR and we can not regulate equalities no matter how we try because variables are never consistent.


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[realunlucky]

2 people with 24 points have 1154 points combined in Nevada draw system. The numbers compound pretty quickly going down the list.
Bet those 2 guys want to change to a straight preference point system

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[realunlucky]

In the above example 1,898 total applicants for unit 161. In the squared point system there is 140,011 entries in the drawing everyone's points squared plus one for the current year. In a straight bonus system there everyone got a single entry for every year they applied there would only be 14,372 total entries. This example shows it's almost 100x harder for someone entering the squared system to draw. Yes they still get there name in the hat 1:140010 chance to draw

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[ndbuck09]

Its so easy, just do it random every year and then there's no variation on which way a system is rigged. Then we wouldn't have to have squabbles amongst ourselves about how tags should be allocated and could focus on the real long-game that these people fighting the bear de-listing are playing. ie: they're using it as a precursor to undermining all state management of wild game, which they can then use to threaten hunting at large.

 

[Molon Labe]

The word fair is banned in my household...its a four letter word that is worse than some of the others than you can think of...by a long shot!

The way I look at it...just vote with your wallet. You think it's not f&*#...don't give them your money.
I send letters, email and speak up at meetings...but ultimately my wallet is my biggest voting tool.

But please for the love of god...don't complain about it being unf#&* and still send them your money every year.

I don't think that WY system makes sense for me...so I am not giving them money in the sheep, moose, goat pool anymore...letting a ton of points float away.
My bad...I should have realized years ago that pouring money into a system where I wouldn't ever see the top was a bad idea.

 

[tyeager2964]

Truly random is the "fairest" way to incorporate new applicants but it is not fair to the people that have applied for years.

My biggest gripe is changing it only after 1 year.

Pick a system and stick with it. If you want to change to totally random then by all means do but dont come back next year when 10000 more people apply and change it again just because someone else complained.

The squeaky wheel will get the grease but sooner or later someone with integrity has to say enough is enough this is the path and you may fall in line or not.

If you are up front and honest about why then I might not agree but I wont whine about it.

 

[sndmn11]

The way these tags are drawn in Colorado has not changed in a while, just how you pay to apply. Folks are still being drawn by an inverted/converted/divided process that mathematically provides a better chance to those who have been applying, but it may not come across that way when looking at the draw results due to points of applicants being heavily skewed.

My issue with the argument that people with oodles of points haven't drawn yet is that they could have just been applying for a point for many years, or the hardest to draw tag, or who knows. Everyone is playing by the same rules and there is an element of chance to things with these rare tags. To me, if the rules are the same for every applicant, that is 100% fair. A guy might have a better chance at spending $1k on raffle tickets if he doesn't like how the state's draw works.

 

[5MilesBack]

What's interesting is that there are way more applicants than there will ever be tags issued in a lifetime for moose and sheep. So while getting weighted points is supposed to give you a better chance of drawing, realistically there will be many, many people that will apply for a lifetime and never draw. The odds are that low, even with points. So adding $50 for residents and $100 for NR's really does nothing to help the draw odds much.

So just give me my dang moose and sheep tags already that I've been waiting years for, and then I can stop applying altogether.

 

[Bulldawg]

I also think that the big three should be once in a lifetime. Once you draw you’re done, you’ve had your shot.


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[tdhanses]

Just noticed that NR desert sheep had a big jump in price, equal to bighorn now.