10mm bear defense

[Teaman1]

Will say that I did see a comparison with hollow points and that wasn’t even close...

 

[Beendare]

Personally I wouldn't carry a 10mm vice a .44 mag, but that's just my preference.

I'm always amused by the guys that claim that the 10mm will give them more rounds on target, I doubt it. I think that most of these guys have never really thought about how most bear encounters happen, it's not like shooting at a paper target.

........

I agree and disagree.

I shoot Glocks a lot...much more than my .44 mag SW 629 revolver. So its no surprise I can pick up a buddies G20 and be faster and more accurate with it vs my revolver.

There are some very good reasons why a Semi auto puts more bullets on target faster than a revolver;

1. Semi takes away some of the recoil, 2. I can get higher on a semi auto....so both of those factors make for less muzzle flip AND 3. Once you know how to shoot the Glock trigger reset....you don't have the long trigger pull of a revolver.

All that makes for faster more accurate followup shots with a Glock.

All of the above assumes one practices with their weapon....and it functions flawlessly. I'm in the process of purchasing and function checking a Gen 3 G20SF to substitute for my .44.


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[mcseal2]

I share your thoughts exactly. I feel like the 10mm crowd is thinking they will get many more shots off and have better odds of a head shot. I think in a bear charge, if a semi auto is getting 3-4 shots, a guy that has practiced with his revolver should get 2-3 shots. From what I’ve gathered, you have a chance to connect with the hips of an average grizzly with a frontal shot using heavy hard casts. I feel like that ups the revolvers odds a bit. I just can’t find any true comparisons of 44 mag, 45 colt vs 10mm with hard casts. I might have to buy one and do my own testing I guess because if you ask about bear defense anymore, you are just referred to posts you most likely have already read.

I copied this from one of my posts on an earlier thread. I called Underwood ammo and asked them about some feeding issues I was having with my Glock and about their ammo options for bear.

I also asked them about the 140 extreme penetrator. He said in gel it gets around 36" of penetration compared to the 50" of the heavy hardcast ammo. He said the wound channel is substantially larger on the Extreme Penetrator. It just depends on what you are actually looking for from the bullet. If he was going to Kodiak Island tomorrow he said he would take his G20 and be comfortable with either. On a bear instead of a gel block he said he would expect 30" of penetration with a good wound channel more similar to that of a JSP bullet than that of a hardcast.

He said it's an excellent choice for someone who wants to run a completely stock G20 and have great feeding and performance.

 

[Teaman1]

Have heard of those, thanks for mentioning them. I wonder if they are good straight line penetrators, something new to read up on

 

[Beendare]

I've got a few buddies running the G20...in various degrees of customization...from bone stock to new barrel, optics, Zev triggers etc.

If you really want an informative read there are some threads on Glocktalk...and a thread on .45 super on Pistol forums.com. The guys on pistol forum seem to be more experienced than the avg shooter.

I've talked offline with GJM about .45 super and he migrated to that round and the H&K's due to reliability issues with his Glock 10mm's that he discusses in that thread. His thread is a long read...but very informative coming from a competitive Alaskan shooter that puts a lot of rounds down range.

I own a HK USP but I don't like the trigger pinch. HK's are just more forgiving of different ammo...AND different shooters. Some of the gals [and nieces] I take shooting can lock up my Glocks limp wristing them...but they can't make my HK's miss a beat. Impressive.

If I have the same problems Mcseal had well detailed in his informative thread....then I will set up the USP for .45 super....or just use the 140gr Lehigh.

....

 

[doverpack12]

I think there is plenty of evidence out there to indicate if you need to stop a bear or any animal it takes multiple shots. What can you place multiple shots more accurately with in the least amount of time. I can guarantee it’s not a long revolver trigger pull or cocking a revolver hammer then pulling the trigger. Of course you could hit them in the brain with any bullet and stop them but even a lot of head shots don’t stop them immediately or at all.

 

[Teaman1]

I agree that (in my opinion) single action revolvers are not great choices for bear defense. I think that a double action revolver in the hands of a person that practices can shoot almost as fast but get much better penetration

 

[Mike7]

I agree that (in my opinion) single action revolvers are not great choices for bear defense. I think that a double action revolver in the hands of a person that practices can shoot almost as fast but get much better penetration

Here are some questions to consider when making a choice.

How much more penetration do you need than a 10 mm hardcast? How many bear skulls are you planning to shoot through at one time?

I can't imagine any caliber of Extreme Penetrator pistol bullet penetrating more hard substrate than a 10 mm 200 to 220 grain hardcast. Has someone seen this in their testing?

When you have 2-3 seconds or less on target just like law enforcement officers do and the ability to train all of the time with any platform you wish, how many in law enforcement still choose revolvers?

 

[Teaman1]

I would guess law enforcement wants higher capacity for encounters that will probably last longer than 5 -10 seconds. They also have to worry a little about shooting through the “bad guy.
Idk how much more penetration you would need, but I’d rather error on the heavy side. Read one story where a guy accidentally hit the bears shoulder first which broke and caused it to fall down, gave him more time to finish the job. I don’t realistically expect to hit a moving skull every shot

 

[Teaman1]

Also, police are dealing with a much smaller and weaker threat. Most stats suggest that the 9mm, 40, and 45 acp don’t reliably stop people with one shot

 

[ramont]

I figure that it's my life that I'm concerned with and I'll pick what makes me feel comfortable. I sell guns at a store and I've seen people buy everything from a .380 to .50 for bear handguns, to each their own. The people that chose the .380 were an older couple that felt that they didn't really want to kill a brown bear, they just wanted to scare it and their "gun expert" friend recommended that caliber - whatever. I've heard just about ever silly assumption that anybody could ever come up with.

Trigger pull on a revolver isn't going to add enough time to your response to even be concerned with. A Glock 20 has a 5-6 pound pull weight from the factory, my S&W 329P has a 6 pound pull weight in single action and around 9 pounds in double action and I practice cocking the gun as I draw it from my chest rig so my first shot is a single action shot. As for the length of time it takes to pull the trigger on my double action vs. a semi-auto gun, well that's pretty minimal too because I do practice a lot, I can average 2 well aimed shots in 3 seconds, I can rattle all 6 shots off in about 5 or 6 seconds but my groups at 15 feet will be about 15 inches. I can't shoot quite as well as Jerry Miculek (he can shoot 6 rounds of 180gr .44mag from a S&W 629 in just over 1 second) but I suspect that I wouldn't do much better with a Glock 20 than what I can do with the 329P. Technique and skill will have more to do with how long it takes you to respond than the mechanical operation of the gun. With the adrenaline pumping you wont even notice the difference between the two pistols.

The only things being said that I agree with by the semi-auto people is that if you should use the gun that you can handle best, as long it's more powerful than a .380.

 

[Mike7]

I would guess law enforcement wants higher capacity for encounters that will probably last longer than 5 -10 seconds. They also have to worry a little about shooting through the “bad guy.
Idk how much more penetration you would need, but I’d rather error on the heavy side. Read one story where a guy accidentally hit the bears shoulder first which broke and caused it to fall down, gave him more time to finish the job. I don’t realistically expect to hit a moving skull every shot

I believe the average human gun fight is less than 3 seconds and utilizes 2-3 shots for whatever that is worth.

If you can shoot a large double action pistol really accurately and quickly, then great, but most can't. Also, the primary factor in stopping someone/something with a handgun is accuracy. And today most semiautos are as accurate and reliable as revolvers.

So that begs the question, since most if not all can hit more accurately and with more rounds from a smaller caliber pistol, and bullet design is such that these hardcast rounds all penetrate adequately down to 9 to 10mm calibers, what would be the rationale for carrying a large, heavy, hard kicking revolver for defense, unless you are already carrying it for handgun hunting purposes?


An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power | Buckeye Firearms Association

An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power | Buckeye Firearms Association

by Greg Ellifritz I've been interested in firearm stopping power for a very long time. I remember reading Handguns magazine back in the late 1980s when Evan Marshall was writing articles about his stopping power studies. When Marshall's first book came out in 1992, I ordered it immediately...

www.buckeyefirearms.org

 

[Cockeye]

After hearing people talk about losing pistols in back country I decide to cerakote my frame to a more visible color.

 

[Teaman1]

Sweet looking gun there cockeye.

Mike7
I can’t disagree with using a 10mm because I cannot find any comparative results or what is a minimum for breaking a big grizzlys shoulder. On the other hand, I can’t get behind the 10mm for the same reason.

 

[Beendare]

I believe the average human gun fight is less than 3 seconds and utilizes 2-3 shots for whatever that is worth.

If you can shoot a large double action pistol really accurately and quickly, then great, but most can't. Also, the primary factor in stopping someone/something with a handgun is accuracy. And today most semiautos are as accurate and reliable as revolvers.

So that begs the question, since most if not all can hit more accurately and with more rounds from a smaller caliber pistol, and bullet design is such that these hardcast rounds all penetrate adequately down to 9 to 10mm calibers, what would be the rationale for carrying a large, heavy, hard kicking revolver for defense, unless you are already carrying it for handgun hunting purposes?


An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power | Buckeye Firearms Association

An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power | Buckeye Firearms Association

by Greg Ellifritz I've been interested in firearm stopping power for a very long time. I remember reading Handguns magazine back in the late 1980s when Evan Marshall was writing articles about his stopping power studies. When Marshall's first book came out in 1992, I ordered it immediately...

www.buckeyefirearms.org

This^ is a great post

it does add info to the discussion in that study ...... though not directly applicable, there are some takeaways.

A key comment the author makes is relevant, IMO;

"In a certain (fairly high) percentage of shootings, people stop their aggressive actions after being hit with one round regardless of caliber or shot placement. These people are likely NOT physically incapacitated by the bullet. They just don't want to be shot anymore and give up! Call it a psychological stop if you will."

So humans are a soft target...and mentally weak...this won't be the case with a charging bear! They can take a licking...and keep on ticking!

So that^ fact argues for the largest most powerful cartridge....but then YOU HAVE TO HIT THEM otherwise you could be shooting a bazooka and it wouldn't do any good.

If I could shoot my .44 as well and as fast as a semi auto- I would stick with it....and I still might.


...

 

[Mike7]

Sweet looking gun there cockeye.

Mike7
I can’t disagree with using a 10mm because I cannot find any comparative results or what is a minimum for breaking a big grizzlys shoulder. On the other hand, I can’t get behind the 10mm for the same reason.

You really should do your own testing. My own testing revealed the same results mentioned in this podcast.

Grizzly Bear Survival and Defense Tactics — Hunt Backcountry Podcast Episode 121

 

[Mike7]

This^ is a great post

it does add info to the discussion in that study ...... though not directly applicable, there are some takeaways.

A key comment the author makes is relevant, IMO;

"In a certain (fairly high) percentage of shootings, people stop their aggressive actions after being hit with one round regardless of caliber or shot placement. These people are likely NOT physically incapacitated by the bullet. They just don't want to be shot anymore and give up! Call it a psychological stop if you will."

So humans are a soft target...and mentally weak...this won't be the case with a charging bear! They can take a licking...and keep on ticking!

So that^ fact argues for the largest most powerful cartridge....but then YOU HAVE TO HIT THEM otherwise you could be shooting a bazooka and it wouldn't do any good.

If I could shoot my .44 as well and as fast as a semi auto- I would stick with it....and I still might.


...

Maybe bears don't psychologically give up in the same way (they run instead of dropping?) or at the same rate?...but amazingly multiple different handguns have still been effective, even with less good bullet choices at times.

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz5OOVWnF5M

 

[Teaman1]

I like that study. I seems to go against what most say on bear defense, but I think 99% of that is opinion. I might just have to talk myself into a 10mm just to do some testing. Hate to spend money just to stick with a revolver.
The 3 choices for me are redhawk 45 colt, 480 ruger, 10mm. I’ve just spent the last year trying to make up my mind and can’t haha

 

[Vandy321]

For those saying they're rather have a heavier caliber...I know a place you can get a sweet deal on a mint Ruger SRH Alaskan in .454 comes with a Kenai chest rig

I'm selling to fund a G20 build for some of the reasons stated above. I just shoot my Glocks better, and in a panic/rush like a bear/lion, that may be the difference between me coming home chewed up or not.

But then again, I dont live or hunt in grizzly country...a 454 would be on my pack if I did....sometimes that old car saying rings true, "there is no replacement for displacement".

 

[Teaman1]

I’m part of the larger caliber crowd, but 454 might cross the line for me to get good follow up shots haha