10mm HSM, Double tap, Underwood chrony results.

[Jesse Jaymes]

The bear I shot in the head was a 200xtp @ 1250 measured fps. Impact distance was 10' and penetration was measured by me at 16"....iirc. retained weight was good. Bullet deformed from a perfect mushroom....but it went in/out skull, hit vertibrae and stopped in the lower neck/upper shoulder.

View attachment 96620

That's first hand experience. Sooooo.....would you do it again, or change something?

 

[Jesse Jaymes]

You could always stagger your rounds as well with HC and XTP's or similar.

Feel dumb for not thinking about that...sounds like a viable option.

 

[Jesse Jaymes]

I have the new Springfield XDm. The HC voodoo that surrounds Glocks isn't prevalent with Springfield and their traditional rifiling barrels. If I can source some locally, I'll shoot some 200 something HC and see what accuracy I can get in a Springer.

 

[PredatorX]

Anyone check out the Fort Scott ammo? Only 124 grain. But going 1600fps. It is designed to tumble. May not be bad to share a mag with some hard cast along side it.

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[Rob5589]

Using HC seems to be more focused on "defense" on big bears; ie, charging bear where you need to penetrate thick skull for an immediate incapacitating hit to brain/spinal column, as opposed to "hunting" them where you can take your time and put a round through the vitals. (All based on published articles, not actual experience.)

 

[PredatorX]

Absolutely! But It also seems like we sacrifice a little tissue damage for those shots not in the head. After all, I'd probably be firing pretty wildly if given the chance. I like what 5MB said and alternate load types in the mag. Not talking about hollow points btw.

 

[Wrench]

That's first hand experience. Sooooo.....would you do it again, or change something?

Honestly it was supposed to have a 200gr DT hard cast....but I had just rallied through a few hundred and was going to blaze some xtps to help knock the lead out.

I'd be fine with any shot not needing more than 12 inches of penetration. Having sent a 45lc lengthwise through a deer....I know it will get where I aim. It'll have a smaller hole, but deeper.

I think it's more about staying cool and making hits than what color your bullet is.

 

[Jesse Jaymes]

 

[tdhanses]

In my factory barrel it only keyholed 220gr hardcast. My Loan Wolf really likes the 220’s and does a pretty good job with cheap ammo as well. The XTP’s are pretty interesting, might have to try some.

 

[Jesse Jaymes]

The below is a reply from an older guy from central Idaho with probably a ton of real world experience Found it kinda interesting. The question was "Why the big hype for Hard Cast for a Woods load"


This is a good question.



A hardcast bullet is NOT much better than a FMJ UNLESS the meplat is wide and the edges are sharp and velocity high for a handgun. Just because a bullet is made from heat treated or hard alloy does not mean it is a good killer of game.



Recognising that all auto handgun cartridges are weak by rifle standards, one must rely on bullet design to make the best of it. Configurations approaching the Keith type provide for overall good disruption of tissue and deep penetration.



On the other side is the FMJ. Yes, deep penetration is a feature of its design, but few have sharply shaped and wide, flat meplats.



Many FMJ's cause little peripheral trauma compared to good JHP's and some HCL bullets. This can be seen in many wound channels where most FMJ's {even some truncated cone designs} almost appear to have been caused by an ice pick.



I have far more experience killing critters with FMJ's than with other bullets, tho I've used SWC, JHP's and JSP's also.



I've killed many dozens of butcher stock {sheep and goats} and many dogs, dozens of coyotes and hundreds of small varmints with various service pistol calibers and the FMJ is by far the least effective bullet at making quick kills compared to any other design unless the other designs are rounded or do not open up and thus act like FMJ's {LRN, JHP and JSP that are too "hard" for the velocity they are paired with}. FMJ's are lethal for sure, but are not quick killers unless CNS is hit.



We follow and chase wound channels of the animals shot.



I am not necessarily a committed fan of the hard cast lead bullet for all uses. Many people IMO overblow the "deep penetration" advantage of hard cast lead bullets and especially the NEED for same in the "West". A good JHP will produce very severe internal trauma and fast kills compared with many cast lead types and of course FMJ's. In fact, faster in some cases than the HCL.



Where very large game is concerned, the hard cast lead bullet with a big wide meplat can be the best {of the worst...I'm not a fan of any service pistol round compared to a rifle} and provide...at least...deep penetration in spite of the fact that peripheral trauma is poor compared to a rifle round. But most FMJ's are far worse yet...



Remember, many folks talk about the need for carrying a heavy, deep penetrating bullet. Yet for most of the actual stuff that needs some killing, a faster-opening bullet may prove best. That is my opinion for bear and lion throughout the West, and now wolves, too. Here where I am, we do not have any really big bear, and frankly, bear don't cause me any consternation anyway though I've killed 9 of them for meat, mostly.



The HCL does provide overall, good performance...for a handgun...



...if it feeds reliably from your auto.



That is another case entirely.

 

[doverpack12]

That response aligns with all of my research on Hardcast bullets. Optimal meplat diameter with sharp edges and max velocity isn’t the most important factor. The Beartooth or Double Tap copy of it are the best around. There may be others now as I haven’t looked real hard in probably 5 years. Buffalo bore 10mm hardcast isn’t a great bullet design in my opinion. Underwood has changed their hardcast bullet over the years and I have not used their latest offering. Montana Bullet Works makes a decent looking bullet I have reloaded a little and it is HiTek coated. 406 ammunition has a good looking bullet but I have not shot a lot for accuracy or feeding reliability.

 

[PredatorX]

This is one reason why I am interested in Fort Scott ammo. It is going fast and bullet design is such that it not only penetrates well but it will also tumble causing a much bigger wound channel.

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[Jesse Jaymes]

In keeping up with the thread, Ive looked at the Underwood ammo a few times. The 200grn HC load. Bullet profile looks identical to an FMJ and not terribly sexy.

 

[Rob5589]

@Jesse Jaymes, thanks for that info. Leaves me to wonder if something like the DT 200 grain controlled expansion HP may be a good/better all around load.

 

[Jesse Jaymes]

Not at all the expert, but enjoy the debate. And unless we all go into the Huckleberry patches mid August in NW Montana with bleat calls.....we will probably never get a good answer.

Any round is better than none. And 15 is better than 6 in my opinion

 

[rileybassman]

Which I do do on a somewhat regular basis... Tho maybe not a bleat call ...

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[mcseal2]

I have had to use what was handy euthanize cattle in the past on the ranch. Sometimes an injury or illness that the animal won't recover from makes a quick end the kindest option available.

It's definitely not the same as a bear coming at you, but it does show a bit about what penetrates well to do the job quick as possible. I have not been happy with any of the popular semi-auto rounds on an older cow or bull with the bullets I had in them. I had them loaded with hollow points designed for self defense against humans, bullets designed to expand fast and not over-penetrate. They don't always go through the skull so I quit using them. I have used 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45. I now carry a few stout FMJ loads in the ammo box in each vehicle if I carry a semi-auto in it. I have not used them and won't use them if there is another choice. They would probably work well, but I don't want to let an animal suffer needlessly since they aren't proven. I always grab my 357 if I know I'm going to have to euthanize anything. I know it will do the job and the ammo is less expensive than my rifle ammo. I have not used the 10mm but would expect it to work well. Part of the reason I think this is that any 10mm load I have on hand is going to be fairly high velocity and tough, I bought a 10mm for that type load.

The 357 combines a fairly high velocity with a fairly small bore diameter. I also primarily use 158gr JHP or JSP ammo from my 357's which are constructed tougher than the lighter self defense stuff. The 10mm offers good velocity for it's bore diameter, similar energy to a 357, and plenty of tough bullets. With the right bullet choice I'm sure it will work well.

Nothing real surprising here, a tougher bullet of smaller diameter pushed at higher velocity penetrates deeper especially after going through bone. My observations do show that bullet choice on bone is important.

Another thing I thought of on the popularity of HC lead bullets and penetration for big predators is that an animal coming directly at you offers a lot of animal to penetrate and cause damage in. The right bullet for going deep into something coming right at you is likely not the perfect bullet for a broadside shot in a hunting scenario. That bullet is being asked to penetrate lungs and organs, not skull, shoulder, and heavy muscle.

 

[Beendare]

I've had some experience shooting hogs at close range with hollow points in .357/.44....and the poor performance left me scratching my head.

I would agree with the comment above; I think the wide meplat hardcast is going to prove to be the best stopper....or that underwood stuff.

Then, Professional hunters in Australia and Africa have been alternating their cartridges [expanding/solids] for many years- a good strategy.

Now, with guys using these in a semi auto the question is, "Will they feed 100% reliably?" I think thats why Buffalo Bore has less meplat on their cartridge- so they feed in a semi auto.

..

 

[mcseal2]

I went to the JSP in my 6" 357 revolvers and lever carbines. It is a bit tougher than most of the JHP designs but still expands pretty well at their velocity. That's not for bear defense, just for a general load. I have packed that load scouting in black bear country. I'd step up to the 180gr HC in 357 for big bear country if I hadn't got the 10mm.