2 lost elk and conclusions.

[Franger]

Inexperienced elk hunter. I don’t want to get into reloading because I have many other fun mountain hobbies. I did invest in a lot of factory rounds to ensure I had the best round for my rifle. My 300WM shoots 180gr FP Trophy Copper sub-MOA, and I’m confident to 350yds and practice often from non-bench situations. It pushes the bullet from the muzzle at 3070fps (100fps over advertised, confirmed via LabRadar) with a G1 BC of .523, which means at my personal effective range of 350yds or less, this mono will impact with 2500fps or greater at an average altitude of 9000 feet above sea level. I choose to shoot mono bullets to keep lead out of my food (open to discussing this) and it’s reputation for weight retention and penetration.

All of that said, this thread has me second guessing myself something awful. I’m genuinely interested in learning what I’m doing wrong with this setup.

 

[roosiebull]

Inexperienced elk hunter. I don’t want to get into reloading because I have many other fun mountain hobbies. I did invest in a lot of factory rounds to ensure I had the best round for my rifle. My 300WM shoots 180gr FP Trophy Copper sub-MOA, and I’m confident to 350yds and practice often from non-bench situations. It pushes the bullet from the muzzle at 3070fps (100fps over advertised, confirmed via LabRadar) with a G1 BC of .523, which means at my personal effective range of 350yds or less, this mono will impact with 2500fps or greater at an average altitude of 9000 feet above sea level. I choose to shoot mono bullets to keep lead out of my food (open to discussing this) and it’s reputation for weight retention and penetration.

All of that said, this thread has me second guessing myself something awful. I’m genuinely interested in learning what I’m doing wrong with this setup.

what are your concerns? sounds like a great elk setup to me

 

[wyosam]

Inexperienced elk hunter. I don’t want to get into reloading because I have many other fun mountain hobbies. I did invest in a lot of factory rounds to ensure I had the best round for my rifle. My 300WM shoots 180gr FP Trophy Copper sub-MOA, and I’m confident to 350yds and practice often from non-bench situations. It pushes the bullet from the muzzle at 3070fps (100fps over advertised, confirmed via LabRadar) with a G1 BC of .523, which means at my personal effective range of 350yds or less, this mono will impact with 2500fps or greater at an average altitude of 9000 feet above sea level. I choose to shoot mono bullets to keep lead out of my food (open to discussing this) and it’s reputation for weight retention and penetration.

All of that said, this thread has me second guessing myself something awful. I’m genuinely interested in learning what I’m doing wrong with this setup.

That is a great set up. Its plenty of gun and plenty of bullet. It sounds like you have taken a very reasonable approach to determining your max distance with your current skill set and equipment, with a solid margin on equipment. Go put one of those bullets through the boiler room!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Squincher]

Inexperienced elk hunter. I don’t want to get into reloading because I have many other fun mountain hobbies. I did invest in a lot of factory rounds to ensure I had the best round for my rifle. My 300WM shoots 180gr FP Trophy Copper sub-MOA, and I’m confident to 350yds and practice often from non-bench situations. It pushes the bullet from the muzzle at 3070fps (100fps over advertised, confirmed via LabRadar) with a G1 BC of .523, which means at my personal effective range of 350yds or less, this mono will impact with 2500fps or greater at an average altitude of 9000 feet above sea level. I choose to shoot mono bullets to keep lead out of my food (open to discussing this) and it’s reputation for weight retention and penetration.

All of that said, this thread has me second guessing myself something awful. I’m genuinely interested in learning what I’m doing wrong with this setup.

A fast, heavy, accurate bullet fired at reasonable range? That, my friend, is a recipe for success.

 

[Jardo]

i shot a doe several years ago with a sierra match in 270 and it didn’t make it past the shoulder. it was a 130 grain sierra. i tracked that doe for 2 miles before i got a shot to finish her off.

this was 20 years ago and not a heavy for caliber bullet like the eld or bergers we shoot these days. that said, i can’t see anyone choosing a match over a bonded bullet like an accubond unless your shooting at very long distance, which i do occasionally.

i get that they are accurate, but so are bonded bullets. my accubond hand loads are just as accurate as my bergers for my long range rig.

to each their own but after trying both, i prefer the bonded construction over match.

i live in hawaii and have access to private property where i deer and pig hunt. i kill well over 40 deer and 20 pigs a year. i’ve got some experience with the accubonds and i would hunt with them over elds and bergers at ranges less than 400 yards. over 400 yards, there is a case to be made for ELDs and Bergers.

just my opinion so don’t get all butt hurt if you don’t agree...

match bullets are for long range hunting only in my book.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Short Track]

I have taken cows with a 7mm-08. 100 yards 140 grain. I have seen guys shoot bulls with .30-06, and they just don't go down. They are tough.

 

[AaronMColeman]

I have taken cows with a 7mm-08. 100 yards 140 grain. I have seen guys shoot bulls with .30-06, and they just don't go down. They are tough.

I've seen a BIG bull taken with a 7mm-08, no problem, at maybe 150y. I've taken most of my elk with a 30-06, no problem, between 50y-350y. I am more and more convinced they are not particularly tough, just big, and big lets them live longer that small animals with the same wound. What that means (again, my view not the be all end all) is I need to put a bigger wound in them in the right spot. That's why I really like the mid-powered rounds like 30-06, .308, 7mm-08, .270, and maybe up to the big 30 caliber magnums, and some of the sexier ones like 6.5PRC, 6.5-284 and so on. I don't think it takes a cannon, but I'd be more comfortable with a more powerful round versus a small light round. Just my thoughts: people overthink it, under practice at the range, and overestimate their ability in the field...the round gets blamed sometimes

 

[Beendare]

Elk can take a licking....and keep on ticking.

I've seen it too many times. Take good high percentage shots....and use a stout penetrating bullet or arrow.

Thankfully, I've only lost one in over 3 decades of elk hunting

 

[Franger]

what are your concerns? sounds like a great elk setup to me

I understand that shot placement is of principle importance. But there so much conflicting information out there that I tend to second guess. Things like shooting the high shoulder in lieu of tucking the bullet behind shoulder or using bonded or cup-and-core lead bullets over mono-metal bullets tend to be batted around in a way that causes me pause.

Are mono bullets bad because they smash through everything and retain all their weight? Is lead really a concern in meat? Are high shoulder shots more apt to immediately anchor a bull?

I‘m always open to tweaking my setup. I just thought that for my skills and concerns, I’d honed in on a combination that was pretty foolproof. Thanks.

 

[Short Track]

I learned over the years . . by experience. Keep shooting until the mag is empty. I don't care how many bullet holes I make, I am not chasing an animal through the Colorado Rockies, especially at 9000'. Even if I loose shoulder meat, it's better than creating lead contaminated bear food.

 

[Formidilosus]

I understand that shot placement is of principle importance. But there so much conflicting information out there that I tend to second guess.

There are terminal ballistics facts, and then there are gun store myths and beliefs. The reality of terminal ballistics has been known since the 90’s and reinforced consistently the last twenty years. Hunters and shooters don’t want to let go of what they “know” that is not true which is why nonsense exists. The ONLY way to measure “effectiveness” of a projectile in tissue is to measure the actual wound left from the passage of the bullet penetrating, stretching, tearing pulping, and destroying the tissue along its path

The Trophy Coppers wouldn’t be my choice, however at sub 350 yards if you put them in the front half a dead elk will result.

Are mono bullets bad because they smash through everything and retain all their weight?

They are not bad. They create deep, relatively narrow wound channels that barring CNS hits, result in longer time to incapacitation- I.e. animals live/travel longer.

Is lead really a concern in meat?

No. First, lead from projectiles is not absorbed by the body like that. Second, the lead does not travel “all through the body” as reports try to state. Not even close. Watch a gel shot with lead bullets. All of the fragments are within a couple inches of the wound path

Are high shoulder shots more apt to immediately anchor a bull?

Yes, if the path of the wound intersects the spinal cord. It’s not the shoulder shot that does it, it’s the spine hit that lies between the top of the scapulas. The issue with “high shoulder” isn’t that it doesn’t work, it’s that a shot slightly high will result in the bullet going above the spine and the animal being stunned only to get back up in a couple of minutes and run off- this is the oft labeled shot in the “void” (that doesn’t exist).

 

[Formidilosus]

I learned over the years . . by experience. Keep shooting until the mag is empty. I don't care how many bullet holes I make, I am not chasing an animal through the Colorado Rockies, especially at 9000'. Even if I loose shoulder meat, it's better than creating lead contaminated bear food.

Indeed. Shoot them into the ground.

 

[roosiebull]

I understand that shot placement is of principle importance. But there so much conflicting information out there that I tend to second guess. Things like shooting the high shoulder in lieu of tucking the bullet behind shoulder or using bonded or cup-and-core lead bullets over mono-metal bullets tend to be batted around in a way that causes me pause.

Are mono bullets bad because they smash through everything and retain all their weight? Is lead really a concern in meat? Are high shoulder shots more apt to immediately anchor a bull?

I‘m always open to tweaking my setup. I just thought that for my skills and concerns, I’d honed in on a combination that was pretty foolproof. Thanks.

you are golden, don't obsess about semantics.

lots of varying theories and opinions, and that's because lots of stuff works. there has been explanations as to why some prefer the high shoulder, and explanations why people like a more traditional shot placement.... common them is shoot through vitals/CNS, picking a shot placement that gives you some room for error.

whatever you decide on for shot placement, your current setup will work good.... seriously, don't worry about your current system, you're good. use your energy on becoming good with your rifle, not worrying about all of the trivial stuff that will never have a defined answer. the conflicting information comes from both sides having success in their way of doing things, so they argue it's right.... they're both right, both work.... focus on making sure you do your part and be confident, your rifle/ammo choice will do it's job, because it absolutely will.

 

[bummer7580]

This thread has actually turned into an educational tool for me. I've always tried to put my bullet behind the front leg one third the way up. For the guys who use shoulder shots, where do you aim on the elk and what bullet are you using to assure you break him down? Thanks in advance.

 

[Elkangle]

interesting contrast today... 270win, 150gr power point, shot just above the knuckle, literally the thickest part of the scapula, about 80yds, busted the scapula, took out heart... DRT

wouldn't count on that every time, especially with that bullet, but it made quick work of a small roosie bull. leg was just flopping around.

How much penitration after the heart did you get ??

I had a similar situation with the hammers this year except all lower on the femar...went in, busted the inside and offside legs...little too low of a shot and the bull had a lot of life left in him...he used his hind legs and could launch himself down the hill like you couldn't believe...all up hill to the truck

Cool sharing experiences

 

[roosiebull]

How much penitration after the heart did you get ??

I had a similar situation with the hammers this year except all lower on the femar...went in, busted the inside and offside legs...little too low of a shot and the bull had a lot of life left in him...he used his hind legs and could launch himself down the hill like you couldn't believe...all up hill to the truck

Cool sharing experiences

wasn't my bull, but the bullet didn't exit the other side, but tore up the heart and both lungs... next time i see him i'll ask if he recovered the bullet, but i didn't feel it when i cut the wind pipe and pulled out the heart/lungs, but it could have been in there somewhere. we were running out of light fast and we were on a steep, nasty, salmonberry choked hillside, and i was hurrying to get it done so we could find our way down to the big spruce log that crossed the creek below us before it got too dark.

i assume the bullet was lodged in the carcass on off side, but not positive.

agree, it's cool comparing real world notes, pretty good learning tool. a lot better to the "in theory" information that's often shared on the internet

 

[wyosam]

There are terminal ballistics facts, and then there are gun store myths and beliefs. The reality of terminal ballistics has been known since the 90’s and reinforced consistently the last twenty years. Hunters and shooters don’t want to let go of what they “know” that is not true which is why nonsense exists. The ONLY way to measure “effectiveness” of a projectile in tissue is to measure the actual wound left from the passage of the bullet penetrating, stretching, tearing pulping, and destroying the tissue along its path

The Trophy Coppers wouldn’t be my choice, however at sub 350 yards if you put them in the front half a dead elk will result.




They are not bad. They create deep, relatively narrow wound channels that barring CNS hits, result in longer time to incapacitation- I.e. animals live/travel longer.





No. First, lead from projectiles is not absorbed by the body like that. Second, the lead does not travel “all through the body” as reports try to state. Not even close. Watch a gel shot with lead bullets. All of the fragments are within a couple inches of the wound path






Yes, if the path of the wound intersects the spinal cord. It’s not the shoulder shot that does it, it’s the spine hit that lies between the top of the scapulas. The issue with “high shoulder” isn’t that it doesn’t work, it’s that a shot slightly high will result in the bullet going above the spine and the animal being stunned only to get back up in a couple of minutes and run off- this is the oft labeled shot in the “void” (that doesn’t exist).

Lead does not spread “throughout the body”, but it does regularly end up in packaged meat, and is subsequently absorbed by the person who eats it. Yep, people have been eating game meat taken with lead bullets for a long time, and no they aren’t tipping over from lead poisoning at an alarming rate. For most people, it will probably never present a problem. For kids and women of childbearing age/potential it can and does cause problems.

Lead bullet fragments in venison from rifle-killed deer: potential for human dietary exposure - PubMed

Human consumers of wildlife killed with lead ammunition may be exposed to health risks associated with lead ingestion. This hypothesis is based on published studies showing elevated blood lead concentrations in subsistence hunter populations, retention of ammunition residues in the tissues of...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

My family’s primary source of protein is wild game, and we eat a ton of it, plus we share a lot with friends and family. Even if the risk is low, why take that risk when perfectly good alternatives exist. It was a different story not too many years ago when alternatives were expensive and of questionable performance. Now there are solid performers widely available. Its way easier to buy lead core bullets that aren’t in any way appropriate to shoot at game than it is monos.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Stid2677]

So, I did not wade through all the prior pages, but I did see a youtube video of a Guy using a drone with thermal imagining to recover lost deer. I know that some states may have laws against this, but the video is impressive. 250 bucks to look and 350 if he finds it. I would guess that the look would have to happen before the animal lost all heat. First time I have seen this used.

 

[SelwaySteve]

Not scientific fact, but the strange, "I hit them square and they walked off" stories I hear are coming from copper bullets. We have taken to coaching clients away from these bullets, based on a large percentage of difficult /non recoveries coming from this ammo.

 

[Formidilosus]

Lead does not spread “throughout the body”, but it does regularly end up in packaged meat, and is subsequently absorbed by the person who eats it. Yep, people have been eating game meat taken with lead bullets for a long time, and no they aren’t tipping over from lead poisoning at an alarming rate. For most people, it will probably never present a problem. For kids and women of childbearing age/potential it can and does cause problems.

Lead bullet fragments in venison from rifle-killed deer: potential for human dietary exposure - PubMed

Human consumers of wildlife killed with lead ammunition may be exposed to health risks associated with lead ingestion. This hypothesis is based on published studies showing elevated blood lead concentrations in subsistence hunter populations, retention of ammunition residues in the tissues of...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I’ve been involved with lead free initiatives since before any hunter had heard of it. This is the exact same thing as masks and COVID. I’ve done this enough to know that the likelihood of someone having an objective fact based discussion online about this subject is nearly zero.
I do not care if you use lead free or lead. I do care about facts and agendas that are pushed. I shoot more lead free projectiles a year by orders of magnitude than lead projectiles. Nearly 100% of meat consumed in my house is killed and butchered by us. We average just under two meals a day with red meat killed by lead projectiles (yes we’ve don’t the math). I have to get my blood checked multiple
times a year.

Reality

1). There have been no RCT’s conducted on lead versus non lead in game meat, consumption, and subsequent risks to any population.

2). Several of the “research” projects that have been used to show risk with lead projectiles had extremely questionable conduct during the studies- as in putting the entire animal into burger with no trimming being conducted, pictures of carcasses that were radiographed with artificially introduced lead fragments throughout the animal “as an example” and then using those pictures as proof of lead contamination, etc., etc.

3). Most all of the studies done have been funded by, or encouraged by groups that are not hunting/shooting friendly. It goes well beyond hunting community.

4). Elevated blood lead levels come from aerosolized lead styphnate (primers) not game meat. Only one study (Italy) has looked at this and tried to be objective. Hunters had the same lead levels as wine drinkers, yet consumers of game meat- but not hunters, had no elevated lead levels compared to the control group.

5). Even extremely fragmenting lead bullets have the fragments contained to with 4-6inches of the wound, and then only when major bones are hit.

6). Current lead free bullets kill slower than, and have more failures to perform, even in properly conducted ballistic testing than lead bullets.

If you want to shoot lead free no problem. But at least be honest about it and acknowledge that the push for lead free is not on the up and up.