2 lost elk and conclusions.

[hobbes]

While the photo above is a good start, It's proportionally off. If I recall correctly, that photo was created by BB over on Bowsite years ago by overlaying a photo of an antelope onto an elk body. I'm pretty sure that he said as much and admitted that it was off proportionally but demonstrated the leg/shoulder structure. The front leg structure is of course correct but it's too far forward and the shoulder blade isn't proportioned large enough for an elk. In addition, the liver is too far back making it appear that there is barely any room for the guts. In fact, the liver shows to be nearly as large as the lungs and would be the biggest liver I've ever seen on an elk. Antelope are a little more compact of an animal, so trying to blow the leg up to fit an elk makes the vitals too big.

 

[BDRam16]

While the photo above is a good start, It's proportionally off. If I recall correctly, that photo was created by BB over on Bowsite years ago by overlaying a photo of an antelope onto an elk body. I'm pretty sure that he said as much and admitted that it was off proportionally but demonstrated the leg/shoulder structure. The front leg structure is of course correct but it's too far forward and the shoulder blade isn't proportioned large enough for an elk. In addition, the liver is too far back making it appear that there is barely any room for the guts. In fact, the liver shows to be nearly as large as the lungs and would be the biggest liver I've ever seen on an elk. Antelope are a little more compact of an animal, so trying to blow the leg up to fit an elk makes the vitals too big.

Ya obviously any picture like that is going to be less than perfect. I was just trying to provide something for people to see that the shoulder blade doesn’t run straight up vertically from the front leg. New hunters hear “behind the front shoulder” and think that means behind the front leg. The vital V is valid in pretty much every 4 legged prey on earth.

 

[hobbes]

Yes, It does demonstrate that well. I see that photo everywhere when elk anatomy comes up. I'd guess that most folks don't know the history of the photo. I suppose that my recollection could be wrong (it happens occasionally ) The vitals on an elk are big, but I do think it gives a false impression of how far back the vitals are on an elk.

 

[Mikido]

This year because I didn't draw any limited entry elk tags (love hunting rut crazed big bulls) I was helping an outfitter friend with his hunters. The first evening we had a hunter who was new to elk hunting in an area we had seen elk that morning. As we watched a sage clearing I continued quietly coaching the hunter that elk live in the bottom third of their body and try to place bullet close behind the front leg. About an hour before sundown a good bull stepped out closer than we were expecting at 160yds. The hunter was shooting off of sticks and had taken time to get comfortable. The hunter asked us if this was a good bull and we said to shoot when we stop it. I cow called and the bull locked up quartering slightly toward us.
At the shot the bull started moving to our left stumbling. After it went about 30 yds I stopped it with a cow call, the hunter shot again missing high left. The elk then turned back and was hit with the 3rd shot which sounded like a gut shot and the fourth shot was a miss. He then made it back into the quakies and the thick brush. I started having a crappy feeling and after 2 days we gave up the search. The hunter was using a .270 with 140 grain mono bullets.
The second troubling experience happened to an experienced hunter in camp who is also a great guide. After 17 years he drew a great tag and spent the summer patterning an incredible bull. On day 5 the bull finally presented a shot at a bit over 400 yds. At the shot the bull fell, got up, fell, got up into the brush and you guessed it was never seen again. My friend passed on numerous other bulls to concentrate on finding the wounded bull. At seasons end all he had was tag soup. The rifle he used was a .270. The guy handloads and is a good shot.
These 2 experiences caused me to reflect on my years of shooting elk and what conclusions I could draw to prevent problems again. Understand these are personal opinions I plan to follow and I realize many people will have different opinions, not looking for an argument. First- I will be adamant to hunters about where to hit elk, bottom third behind front leg on a broadside. Second- I will personally hunt with nothing smaller than my 7mm magnum with 160 grain or heavier lead bullets. After this year I may try 175 gr Nosler partitions. Third- I will limit my self to no shot longer than 400 yds and then only if I can shoot prone over a pack. The best bull I have ever shot at was facing me at 220 yds. I was sitting but wasn't using a rest. He fell at the shot and when I had worked my way over to him through the brush he was gone. My rifle was a 270 with a mono copper bullet. I am the one that pulled the trigger and the lost bull was my fault. It had taken 12 yrs to draw that tag.
This post is a little long but I hope it might help some new hunters. I realize other hunters have different ideas, do what's right for you.

Thanks for sharing, great info

 

[frobert22]

My .02

I do not like the smaller (less than 7mm and preferably magnum) cartridges, or lighter bullets used with Elk. This is my experience with multiple hunters of average capabilities. Not summertime who is a great shot.

I like the heavier bullets. I have seen much better success with heavier bullets and all of our losses were with lighter bullets.

Again, for those who kill elk with something out of the category I described, I have too. But I haven't lost one with the heavier bullets.

The last category is angle. Non broadside shots marginalize success. Even a slightly quartered to shot is tough.

My suggestion for successful elk killing choices is a magnum size cartridge, on the heavier size for the cartdridge.

I've probably seen 80 to 100 elk in the last 20 years get killed. The couple we lost fit into the categories I described.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

Agree with this*

 

[bummer7580]

On this thread there has been a lot of discussion on the plusses and minuses of different bullets for elk. It sounds like there are many good choices people have been successful with. I tend to like Noslers even with their weaknesses. If Nosler would ask for help in designing the perfect bullet I would suggest to them to take the partition and give it a sharp pointed hard thermal polymer tip. It would prevent the battering the lead points take in the magazine and boost its BC. Alas while getting closer to the perfect bullet I not expecting a call for advice. LOL

 

[Rando8586]

8 bulls,33 cows. 280 rem to 338 win mag. 30-06 &300 win mag on most. Longest shot was 405yds,went a 100yds . 338 dropped in place. also dropped a bison with it. Most just took a couple steps.

 

[roosiebull]

Every gun has it's optimal range to kill an elk. The farther you want to shoot the bigger the caliber should be to stay in this optimal range. Everyone has made the "great" shot, but when I see someone shooting a 6.5 Creedmore at a Bull at 950 yds it makes me cringe. 270's have killed more elk than any gun over time, but not at 400 - 500 yds. Shot placement kills not caliber but if you plan on shooting over 400 yds you should up gun in most cases. Although it is always best to shoot what you shoot best not just pick the bigger caliber.

i think there is some truth to this, but also missing factors..... i think lots of people these days are willing to shoot further (often a lot) than they are qualified to shoot at animals. i think people buy a big magnum and that gives them the ability to shoot further, in reality, it doesn't, and likely goes the other direction, they should be shooting closer since they are afraid of their new long range killer.

there are not a ton of guys qualified to take shots over 500yds, but the guys who truly are, and put in the time behind the rifle to do it, are generally those guys who can handle the bigger cartridges well. use a rifle you aren't afraid of, and stay within your realistic means, and only take shots you are qualified to take, and you don't need that magnum just in case you make a bad shot......

everyone thinks they are sniper status these days, they buy a rifle that's capable of shooting really well way out there and they seem to assume that rifles potential will magically rub off on them, when in reality, they will see no difference in their actual groups, because they are the weakest link, not the rifle, not the cartridge.

i can think of 3 people off of the top of my head who are not good shots at all..... pretty bad actually, and they bought rifle/scope combos in the last 6 months that are geared towards long range shooting/hunting..... if you miss the whole animal at 150yds with a dialed in Tikka, i would probably hold off on a long range rig, haha.

people are always looking to buy something that will "make them better" it just doesn't work, and that's why i think the "you need a big magnum cartridge for elk" is BS. there has been some great info in this thread, but much of it is dismissed because people can't see the facts, they bought into a belief system at some point and ignored some realities. if people understood and accepted their limitations, none of this matters.....

i think a big magnum in the right hands is a great tool for killing elk, but from what i have seen is most aren't good enough to benefit from them at all, and they suck at shooting them. you certainly don't need a magnum to kill elk very handily at the ranges 90% of the people should be shooting.... wasted gun powder for most

 

[CAElkhunter]

Amen. There is a bad trend in hunting where gun makers advertise sub 1 MOA guns and 1000 yd rifles.
Yes the gun is capable but unless you practice at that distance you are not. I have seen several times in the
past few years novice hunters show up with their $ 10K Gunwerks rifle and proclaim they are 1000 yd shooters and will make that shot. One even went so far to be proud that she almost hit a Bull 3 times at 950.

 

[Laramie]

I can't believe this thread went 14 pages and the majority of it was painful to read. So many people would do well to get their advice from reputable places instead of advertisements from manufacturers. I really hope new hunters take the time to ask questions and seek good answers. For instance, why were mono bullets created?

 

[Hunterbug]

I doubt that there is a cartridge around that hasn't killed an elk or one that hasn't lost one. They are big, tough, animals. Shot placement is key and keep pouring bullets in them as long as they're moving.

 

[Schroedernd]

Lots of conflicting info for a newbie hunter here.... I just got a 300 wsm I haven't even fired and am now looking at something a little nicer for blacktail and deer. The company I'm looking at has 6.5 prc and 300 prc as options. I feel like the 6.5 is too small and the 300 prc too big for the mostly deer hunting I will be doing. Decisions...

 

[Sled]

Lots of conflicting info for a newbie hunter here.... I just got a 300 wsm I haven't even fired and am now looking at something a little nicer for blacktail and deer. The company I'm looking at has 6.5 prc and 300 prc as options. I feel like the 6.5 is too small and the 300 prc too big for the mostly deer hunting I will be doing. Decisions...

Good luck finding prc ammo.

 

[Schroedernd]

Good luck finding prc ammo.

I plan to reload for it.

 

[PRC_GUY]

145 grain bullet for elk!
I wouldn’t take that shot
I prefer 180 grain or more and shot placement too.

 

[HiMtnHntr]

I haven't read through all this stuff, maybe in February? In regards to the original poster, on the one hand you can't make the shot for them. Guiding is tough. On the other, you can advocate for use of a bigger gun. I know elk are killed all the time with smaller calibers, and the .270s reputation speaks for itself. But, I am a magnum fan when it comes to elk. My wife and kids shoot magnums at elk comfortably. All have died. You can't argue the that.

 

[Wellsdw]

May have been stated in the last 14 pages, I only went through a few, but why not let them lay for 2-4 hrs after shooting them if they make it to cover? Grizzly county is different, I get that. But I have to believe a lot of these elk are bedded probably just a couple hundred yards away and will die where they lay if not pushed. They bed, clot, still internally bleeding, then hank and Darryl run up for the grip and grin, elk staggers off in a change of direction with no blood trail. Still dead within a few hundred yards of original bed with no way to track.

 

[OXN939]

Seen too many folks that feel they have to shoot magnums to kill an animal. These same folks tend to be so scared of their rifle that they literally cannot kill a stationary 8.5"x11" piece of paper at 100 yards shooting prone off a bipod and rear rest.

Lots of conflicting info for a newbie hunter here.... I just got a 300 wsm I haven't even fired and am now looking at something a little nicer for blacktail and deer. The company I'm looking at has 6.5 prc and 300 prc as options. I feel like the 6.5 is too small and the 300 prc too big for the mostly deer hunting I will be doing. Decisions...

Lol this thread got so wild... 6.5 PRC is way more than enough horsepower for deer. In fact, 6.5 CM, which will propel the same bullet at 100-200 FPS slower, is more than enough for deer. Shot placement is way, way more important than caliber.

 

[Stalker69]

I've not killed a lot of elk. Those that I have killed have been with a bow or a 7 mag shooting 175 grain factory bullets. I've never understood the fascination with shooting elk with small calibers and light ammo. It's like it's a badge of honor to say I killed a bull with a rubber band and a spit wad and he only took two steps. Maybe I've grown too old.

Strange, but yet you hunt them with a bow. And yes it is my preferred method also, but it has thought me it’s more about shot placement and getting close to the animals, that lead to a successful recovery.

 

[littlebigtine]

This year because I didn't draw any limited entry elk tags (love hunting rut crazed big bulls) I was helping an outfitter friend with his hunters. The first evening we had a hunter who was new to elk hunting in an area we had seen elk that morning. As we watched a sage clearing I continued quietly coaching the hunter that elk live in the bottom third of their body and try to place bullet close behind the front leg. About an hour before sundown a good bull stepped out closer than we were expecting at 160yds. The hunter was shooting off of sticks and had taken time to get comfortable. The hunter asked us if this was a good bull and we said to shoot when we stop it. I cow called and the bull locked up quartering slightly toward us.
At the shot the bull started moving to our left stumbling. After it went about 30 yds I stopped it with a cow call, the hunter shot again missing high left. The elk then turned back and was hit with the 3rd shot which sounded like a gut shot and the fourth shot was a miss. He then made it back into the quakies and the thick brush. I started having a crappy feeling and after 2 days we gave up the search. The hunter was using a .270 with 140 grain mono bullets.
The second troubling experience happened to an experienced hunter in camp who is also a great guide. After 17 years he drew a great tag and spent the summer patterning an incredible bull. On day 5 the bull finally presented a shot at a bit over 400 yds. At the shot the bull fell, got up, fell, got up into the brush and you guessed it was never seen again. My friend passed on numerous other bulls to concentrate on finding the wounded bull. At seasons end all he had was tag soup. The rifle he used was a .270. The guy handloads and is a good shot.
These 2 experiences caused me to reflect on my years of shooting elk and what conclusions I could draw to prevent problems again. Understand these are personal opinions I plan to follow and I realize many people will have different opinions, not looking for an argument. First- I will be adamant to hunters about where to hit elk, bottom third behind front leg on a broadside. Second- I will personally hunt with nothing smaller than my 7mm magnum with 160 grain or heavier lead bullets. After this year I may try 175 gr Nosler partitions. Third- I will limit my self to no shot longer than 400 yds and then only if I can shoot prone over a pack. The best bull I have ever shot at was facing me at 220 yds. I was sitting but wasn't using a rest. He fell at the shot and when I had worked my way over to him through the brush he was gone. My rifle was a 270 with a mono copper bullet. I am the one that pulled the trigger and the lost bull was my fault. It had taken 12 yrs to draw that tag.
This post is a little long but I hope it might help some new hunters. I realize other hunters have different ideas, do what's right for you.

This year because I didn't draw any limited entry elk tags (love hunting rut crazed big bulls) I was helping an outfitter friend with his hunters. The first evening we had a hunter who was new to elk hunting in an area we had seen elk that morning. As we watched a sage clearing I continued quietly coaching the hunter that elk live in the bottom third of their body and try to place bullet close behind the front leg. About an hour before sundown a good bull stepped out closer than we were expecting at 160yds. The hunter was shooting off of sticks and had taken time to get comfortable. The hunter asked us if this was a good bull and we said to shoot when we stop it. I cow called and the bull locked up quartering slightly toward us.
At the shot the bull started moving to our left stumbling. After it went about 30 yds I stopped it with a cow call, the hunter shot again missing high left. The elk then turned back and was hit with the 3rd shot which sounded like a gut shot and the fourth shot was a miss. He then made it back into the quakies and the thick brush. I started having a crappy feeling and after 2 days we gave up the search. The hunter was using a .270 with 140 grain mono bullets.
The second troubling experience happened to an experienced hunter in camp who is also a great guide. After 17 years he drew a great tag and spent the summer patterning an incredible bull. On day 5 the bull finally presented a shot at a bit over 400 yds. At the shot the bull fell, got up, fell, got up into the brush and you guessed it was never seen again. My friend passed on numerous other bulls to concentrate on finding the wounded bull. At seasons end all he had was tag soup. The rifle he used was a .270. The guy handloads and is a good shot.
These 2 experiences caused me to reflect on my years of shooting elk and what conclusions I could draw to prevent problems again. Understand these are personal opinions I plan to follow and I realize many people will have different opinions, not looking for an argument. First- I will be adamant to hunters about where to hit elk, bottom third behind front leg on a broadside. Second- I will personally hunt with nothing smaller than my 7mm magnum with 160 grain or heavier lead bullets. After this year I may try 175 gr Nosler partitions. Third- I will limit my self to no shot longer than 400 yds and then only if I can shoot prone over a pack. The best bull I have ever shot at was facing me at 220 yds. I was sitting but wasn't using a rest. He fell at the shot and when I had worked my way over to him through the brush he was gone. My rifle was a 270 with a mono copper bullet. I am the one that pulled the trigger and the lost bull was my fault. It had taken 12 yrs to draw that tag.
This post is a little long but I hope it might help some new hunters. I realize other hunters have different ideas, do what's right for you.

thanks for taking the time to share. these are experiences that anybody can draw vital information from when choosing a weapon, caliber, cartridge and bullet construction for north americas toughest trophy. elk are no joke and i still will never forget the first time i walked up to an expired mature bull. incredible, enormous, absolute power. cheers to always trying to be better