21st century rifle - what does this mean to you?

[Stinky Coyote]

What does 21st century rifle look like to you?

To me it looks like this;

1. Adjustable LOP (fit everyone instantly, no tools)
2. Take down or folding butt stock (fit in packs)
3. Modern cartridge/ballistics (less powder more performance, everyone can shoot it well)
4. Detach 10 round mags
5. Bolt action (simplicity/maintenance)
6. Shorter threaded barrels (suppressors but also packability/handling)
7. Modular (ie; chassis/ar style choices for ergo and disciplines like hunting or target, grips, butt stocks etc.)
8. Put together at kitchen table (no smithing required)
9. More stainless options be nice and get weight down for hunters (not just for le/military/competition)

Having gone through the lightweight backpack mountain rigs through to the above that's where I'm staying (the above), just value versatility and efficiency over all other things.

If manufacturers are serious about the future they will be moving this direction and it appears lots are. Chassis.

About the only thing missing or for future development could be QD scope mounting option standardized or developed much like the blaser system that is just as repeatable and precise and strong as the blaser system. Not picatinny.

Am I missing anything? Your thoughts on the future of our centerfire bang sticks?

 

[Formidilosus]

What does 21st century rifle look like to you?

To me it looks like this;

1. Adjustable LOP (fit everyone instantly, no tools)

This may or may not apply to most- that tool-less adjustability adds weight and complexity.

2. Take down or folding butt stock (fit in packs)

While convenient sometimes, it too adds weight and complexity.

3. Modern cartridge/ballistics (less powder more performance, everyone can shoot it well)

This is a good thing.

4. Detach 10 round mags

Detachable mags done right are better from a functional standpoint, though I don’t know that 10rd mags are mandatory.

5. Bolt action (simplicity/maintenance)

Simple maybe, but reliability goes to AR15 variants by a long shot.

6. Shorter threaded barrels (suppressors but also packability/handling)

Yes.

7. Modular (ie; chassis/ar style choices for ergo and disciplines like hunting or target, grips, butt stocks etc.)

This like chassis, is a good thing generally for shooting, but not necessarily for hunting or general field use

8. Put together at kitchen table (no smithing required)

Generally better/easier, thought it becomes a Lego at some point.

9. More stainless options be nice and get weight down for hunters (not just for le/military/competition)

Yes, but nitride is better still.

If manufacturers are serious about the future they will be moving this direction and it appears lots are. Chassis.

Metal chassis suck in the cold and suck in the heat. They are loud, they are generally very heavy, full pistol grips work great for semi auto’s and dedicated precision rifles- not as great for general field guns.

About the only thing missing or for future development could be QD scope mounting option standardized or developed much like the blaser system that is just as repeatable and precise and strong as the blaser system. Not picatinny.

While the Blaser mounting system is effective generally, it won’t be and isn’t as “strong” as an integral rail.

Am I missing anything? Your thoughts on the future of our centerfire bang sticks?

Metal chassis suck for inclement weather field guns. Most designs are sub-optimal for general field guns. While yes, the market will continue heading that direction, I can not say it is the best direction.

 

[Northpark]

To me it’s a Sig Cross suppressed. But not in 6.5 creed. Maybe 6.5prc or 7 prc for an all around big game killer.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

This may or may not apply to most- that tool-less adjustability adds weight and complexity.




While convenient sometimes, it too adds weight and complexity.





This is a good thing.




Detachable mags done right are better from a functional standpoint, though I don’t know that 10rd mags are mandatory.





Simple maybe, but reliability goes to AR15 variants by a long shot.





Yes.




This like chassis, is a good thing generally for shooting, but not necessarily for hunting or general field use





Generally better/easier, thought it becomes a Lego at some point.



Yes, but nitride is better still.



Metal chassis suck in the cold and suck in the heat. They are loud, they are generally very heavy, full pistol grips work great for semi auto’s and dedicated precision rifles- not as great for general field guns.




While the Blaser mounting system is effective generally, it won’t be and isn’t as “strong” as an integral rail.





Metal chassis suck for inclement weather field guns. Most designs are sub-optimal for general field guns. While yes, the market will continue heading that direction, I can not say it is the best direction.

Agree the AR's got a head start on the modularity/lego/build at home for various disciplines but the bolt guns are coming along.

Agree the weights still too heavy on on lots of builds but not all is chassis itself, optics mounting and optics themselves are often poorly chosen for hunting builds, metal alternatives while keeping the modularity and adjustability will be a future direction although the AR hunters seem to have enough solutions to the typical metal concerns.

Agree that folders currently add too much weight but solutions are out there and more will come. Couple manufacturers have come up with light folders (Troy pump AR had nice one, CZ trail I think has one, Mdt/xlr options still heavy). The poor mans take down weighs nothing on any carbine buffer tube chassis, just a little loctite on the castle nut of a buffer tube/ar butt stock combo and you can spin the butt stock off and on repeatably whenever you wanna pack in or out and stuff the rifle in the pack, for mountain minimalists not a huge deal, still quicker to put together than a blaser k95 takedown rifle. It's just a versatility step that will become an option of future to keep versatility points max. If they don't have folding/take down/pack fit ability a competitor will have it...same goes with quick adjustable lop...the lone alpha males or pairs aren't as numerous as those with family/friends that do more shooting things than just mountain big game work so this will be a feature that competitors will want to offer standard as well.

Thanks for the thoughts, should spur or see lots of that in the future.

At first when I tried chassis in field I wasn't sure it would work out but ended up shooting really well at crunch time etc. and now grown too prefer it. Seems this is a common theme and one of the reasons developments heading this way.

And if a rail is screwed onto an action then the blaser system is stronger and can only be installed in one spot, not many on the rail. If the rail is one piece machined as part of the action then it's down to which rings for strength and some pretty beefy options out there but those 6.5 oz steel blaser systems cam onto the receiver at a level only a sledge hammer could potentially mess up, the scope will fail long before the mount, screw down based rail system would never compete with that. And the repeatability and confidence in that system was better than anything, tested the crap out of that looking for holes or question marks etc. but that set up was flawless, never a zero shift, sub-moa, so confident I took the scope off for everything, pack in/out, safe storage, you could not get it to mess up. Years of this, throw it back together for next season, dead on every time.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

To me it’s a Sig Cross suppressed. But not in 6.5 creed. Maybe 6.5prc or 7 prc for an all around big game killer.

Yes, this is a perfect example of a company looking forward at this and taking a really great run at it. Well played Sig.

Here's something I've learned about these chassis things in growing pains with mdt and various platforms and seeing some of the new chassis based systems. You need to watch for reach to trigger. I never gave this much thought until I had one where this was way too short and finger wrapped too far around trigger. Howa mini in an mdt will show you this and you'll be looking for a grip that pushes your thumb strap back as far as you can find to ease this. Ruger American in mdt no issues. Just a new measurement. I've seen some now by pictures alone that I can tell the manufacturer missed and the trigger is just way too close to the thumb strap. Here's one for example...and sounds like I was right in talking to a guy with one. https://blackcreeklabs.com/portfolio_page/bison/ So there will be some growing pains and gen 2's etc. as manufacturers figure out the nuances and standard measures and fits etc. Traditional stocks a little less fussy to this particular situation.

 

[Helislacker]

This may or may not apply to most- that tool-less adjustability adds weight and complexity.




While convenient sometimes, it too adds weight and complexity.





This is a good thing.




Detachable mags done right are better from a functional standpoint, though I don’t know that 10rd mags are mandatory.





Simple maybe, but reliability goes to AR15 variants by a long shot.





Yes.




This like chassis, is a good thing generally for shooting, but not necessarily for hunting or general field use





Generally better/easier, thought it becomes a Lego at some point.



Yes, but nitride is better still.



Metal chassis suck in the cold and suck in the heat. They are loud, they are generally very heavy, full pistol grips work great for semi auto’s and dedicated precision rifles- not as great for general field guns.




While the Blaser mounting system is effective generally, it won’t be and isn’t as “strong” as an integral rail.





Metal chassis suck for inclement weather field guns. Most designs are sub-optimal for general field guns. While yes, the market will continue heading that direction, I can not say it is the best direction.

I don’t know much about AR’s, but I’m curious as to why semi-auto AR variants have not largely replaced bolt guns for hunting rifles? From an outsider perspective it seems there’s a lot of options out there now in 6.5 etc. that are accurate and reliable. What advantages, if any, would something like a T3x or S20 in .223 hold over a quality AR15 in field use?

 

[Formidilosus]

I don’t know much about AR’s, but I’m curious as to why semi-auto AR variants have not largely replaced bolt guns for hunting rifles? From an outsider perspective it seems there’s a lot of options out there now in 6.5 etc. that are accurate and reliable. What advantages, if any, would something like a T3x or S20 in .223 hold over a quality AR15 in field use?

AR’s have a longer lock time, in the large frame guns (308, etc) are significantly more finicky than either AR15’s or bolt actions; they are cold in winter, hot in summer, and lots of people believe they are too complicated. But the real reason is that while a lot of current hunters won’t admit that it matters- AR’s are cold soulless things.

They are absolutely spectacular at many things, but single precise shots they do not match an equivalent bolt gun. Given identical shots, hit rates are higher with a same/same bolt gun over any semi auto.

 

[Helislacker]

AR’s have a longer lock time, in the large frame guns (308, etc) are significantly more finicky than either AR15’s or bolt actions; they are cold in winter, hot in summer, and lots of people believe they are too complicated. But the real reason is that while a lot of current hunters won’t admit that it matters- AR’s are cold soulless things.

They are absolutely spectacular at many things, but single precise shots they do not match an equivalent bolt gun. Given identical shots, hit rates are higher with a same/same bolt gun over any semi auto.

Interesting. I had wondered why the Canadian military went with another bolt gun for the arctic rangers, but this makes sense now. There is alot of info here that I would not even have considered.

For you, in a hypothetical situation where you had one rifle to choose for a do all rifle from 0-1000 yds, are you going with a bolt gun or AR? What rifle/optic setup are you going with?

 

[Formidilosus]

Interesting. I had wondered why the Canadian military went with another bolt gun for the arctic rangers, but this makes sense now. There is alot of info here that I would not even have considered.

What’s interesting about that, is in that environment a properly built AR15 is significantly more reliable than any bolt action made. The Artic Ranger decision seems to be a mix of “we mostly hunt”, and “we’re used to bolt actions”.

For you, in a hypothetical situation where you had one rifle to choose for a do all rifle from 0-1000 yds, are you going with a bolt gun or AR? What rifle/optic setup are you going with?

A do it all hunting rifle? Or a true do it all?

 

[Helislacker]

What’s interesting about that, is in that environment a properly built AR15 is significantly more reliable than any bolt action made. The Artic Ranger decision seems to be a mix of “we mostly hunt”, and “we’re used to bolt actions”.





A do it all hunting rifle? Or a true do it all?

I find that interesting because I and most I hunt with have always viewed semi autos as a whole as being less reliable than any bolt gun, especially in the temps I often hunt in.

Obviously I had no clue, and now I’m kicking myself for not building a nice AR before the ban up here in . Oh well…maybe someday.

Let’s say one rifle for each. With the intent of focusing solely on performance with the hunting rifle, rather than it’s viability as an heirloom rifle or something with soul/character.

 

[Rob5589]

I used the first gen XLR chassis and while it was super modular and adjustable, I found it to excel in prone and mediocre in every other position. Plus it was heavy and clunky. This was in prs style shooting, however.

For a hunting gun, a pistol/semi pistol grip and standard stock works best for me. Having adjustability so that anyone can shoot it doesn't even make my list. I want a solid bolt gun, solid optics mount, solid optic. Unfortunately a can isn't available in Commiefornia.

 

[Dobermann]

A do it all hunting rifle? Or a true do it all?

By 'true do it all', are you including defensive use, and therefore requiring semi-auto?

 

[Gorp2007]

20” threaded Tikka in a KRG Bravo that accepts factory bottom metal and long action magazines.

 

[Macintosh]

It strikes me looking at what is truly new versus what has simply changed shape based on current trend (ie positional precision rifle competition), there isnt much that is truly “new” in the 21st century. Refinement, absolutely. Greater acceptance based on refinement, of course. the thing that seems to have changed the most is one platform having multiple purpose-driven configurations, combined with modularity. You see that with AR’s (ar’s have been available well back into the previous century, but no one I knew “built” them, they always “bought” them) as much as you see it with bolt guns (the rise of aftermarket stocks/chassis, barrels, triggers, bottom metal, and now every variant from lw sporter through heavy tactical or carbon long range, etc). it seems very little is “new”, its just becoming more modular and available, and often accessible without custom work or with more assembly than construction. This seems like a good thing. Id like to see the assembly of a off the shelf trued action, selection of a barrel, stock/chassis, trigger and the assembly become more of a “available in stock at your local gun shop” than it currently is, without having to swap parts and pay for parts you don't even want or need because you're going to replace. Its heading in that direction, but it ain't there yet. Not having to wait a year for all of that and being able to see as you buy would be pretty new and 21st century

 

[Formidilosus]

I find that interesting because I and most I hunt with have always viewed semi autos as a whole as being less reliable than any bolt gun, especially in the temps I often hunt in.

Mean Round Between Stoppages (MRBS) with quality AR15 variants is in the thousands; with the best bolt actions it’s in the hundreds. The AR15 is a sealed system- ice, snow, sand, debris is kept out. With bolt actions, they are open systems- direct paths for ice, snow, sand, and debris to enter the working components.

Let’s say one rifle for each. With the intent of focusing solely on performance with the hunting rifle, rather than it’s viability as an heirloom rifle or something with soul/character.

Hunting- Blaser R8, Minox ZP5 with THLR reticle, or if I can’t get that, the SWFA 3-9x. If that is too expensive, Tikka T3 in a KRG Bravo chassis with the same scopes.

General- 14.5” AR15 in an LMT MRP, Nightforce 1-8x.

 

[Dobermann]

Hunting- Blaser R8 ...

Huh. Interesting ... which model?

Many of the ones I'm seeing locally have thumbhole / pistol grips and, from the screen images, I can't see a negative drop on the comb, or that the buttpad is in line with the bore axis ... not that I can afford one, but you've piqued my curiosity in that context!

 

[Formidilosus]

Huh. Interesting ... which model?

Many of the ones I'm seeing locally have thumbhole / pistol grips and, from the screen images, I can't see a negative drop on the comb, or that the buttpad is in line with the bore axis ... not that I can afford one, but you've piqued my curiosity in that context!

Whichever floats your boat- not the thumbhole stocked ones. Their stock geometry could be improved and there are aftermarket items to correct them, but as a whole, the gun design and execution itself is very solid.

 

[49ereric]

Same rifle as the 20th century a bolt action.

 

[orhunter1]

I was following the .223 thread and intrigued how AR-15's will work for deer hunting with the TMK 77gr bullets. I have a LWRC 16" short stroke piston AR without any modifications with a Kahles 16i LVPO optic. Would this be a decent gun for deer?

 

[bullseye717]

AR-15 still seems really modern despite it's age.