.223 for bear, deer, elk and moose.

[axeforce6]

it really is time well spent if you are looking at a computer...... way more valuable than most time spent looking at a computer/phone, don't have to read it all at once, but nobody could give you a cliff notes version that compares to reading all of the great info (both on topic and off topic) yourself.

like i have said before, it's the most information rich topic i have ever read on the internet.... no close second i can think of.... doesn't only apply to the .223 either, just a ton of great overall information on ballistics, a huge collaboration of great first hand experience with many good side tangents..... you would likely disagree if you were one of the naysayers arguing feelings vs other's real world results, haha..... so there is some comedy mixed in too.... seriously a great thread worth reading in it's entirety....

I appreciate the insight. I’ll dig into pretty soon. Thank you.

 

[Billy Goat]

OP: "I'm going to use this bullet in a caliber that many think is sub standard to kill big shit."

13 people: "You can't do that, it's too small, conventional wisdom blah blah, unethical blah blah blah."

87.5 pages of empirical proof, testing, photographic & anecdotal first hand evidence, lessons on neck length, temporary vs permanent wound cavity, tissue shock, fragmentation, fragment dispersal, trauma & bleeding theory, ballistic calculations, velocity implications, picture evidence of many, MANY critters killed with the OP's intended combination, dissertations from someone who shoots & tests more bullet, cartridge, rifle & scope combinations in a month than most people will do in a lifetime, some jokes, some tears, life lessons, couple of arguments & education later......

You:
View attachment 426955

You lost me and my add at 13 people.

Gotta be short and to the point, like my member.

 

[Formidilosus]

OP: "I'm going to use this bullet in a caliber that many think is sub standard to kill big shit."

13 people: "You can't do that, it's too small, conventional wisdom blah blah, unethical blah blah blah."

87.5 pages of empirical proof, testing, photographic & anecdotal first hand evidence, lessons on neck length, temporary vs permanent wound cavity, tissue shock, fragmentation, fragment dispersal, trauma & bleeding theory, ballistic calculations, velocity implications, picture evidence of many, MANY critters killed with the OP's intended combination, dissertations from someone who shoots & tests more bullet, cartridge, rifle & scope combinations in a month than most people will do in a lifetime, some jokes, some tears, life lessons, couple of arguments & education later......

You:
View attachment 426955

Haha.

 

[dreamingWest]

Great thread! I’m finally caught up. I’m pretty sure my post was back in the single digit pages when I had already seen enough (for deer and elk).

Two years ago I put my Rokslide special together(Tikka 223, NF SHV, 77 TMK, TBAC7) primarily as a trainer and Texas pig shooter. It’s been outstanding helping me become a better rifleman. And it’s been devastating on hogs, yotes, deer, and sadly a dog. (I should post pics).

Some random thoughts/questions:

• Can y’all imagine my guide in the Yukon this year if I showed up with a .223? I won’t, because I’m going to respect their recommendations.
  
  
• I’ve always said cartridges are more similar than different. So the results shown in this thread on bigger game does not surprise me. My question, at which point to you think you get appreciable increase in performance? (338 WM, 375HH, 50 BMG)? As stated in this thread, appreciable increase in performance is not needed for 95% of hunting.
  
  
• Somewhere in the page 30s someone asked a good question about using a .223 for a OiaL elk tag. The answer was a resounding yes to use the 77 tmks. What about a pocket full of tags in the Yukon where lots a big critters are fair game with grizzly as your primary target? Still going .223 and 77 tmks?
  
  
• Last year I had a juvenile boar grizzly come into camp wanting to eat my tagged sheep. As a bowhunter, I know in a situation like that you’re just thankful to have a rifle and not a bow! Does dangerous critters roaming around your camp, change your rifle selection? I’m guessing not, since a lot of you guys are reporting from Idaho and Montana. But traditionally, this is the primary reason guides and outfitters recommend 30 cals in the north country.
  

This thread is really putting a damper on my justification for my “well thought out” and nostalgic rifle collection!

 

[Formidilosus]

Some random thoughts/questions:
I’ve always said cartridges are more similar than different. So the results shown in this thread on bigger game does not surprise me. My question, at which point to you think you get appreciable increase in performance? (338 WM, 375HH, 50 BMG)? As stated in this thread, appreciable increase in performance is not needed for 95% of hunting.

You can get larger wounds with larger calibers if you maximized the bullets, however almost no one does that, and almost no one would want that.

Somewhere in the page 30s someone asked a good question about using a .223 for a OiaL elk tag. The answer was a resounding yes to use the 77 tmks. What about a pocket full of tags in the Yukon where lots a big critters are fair game with grizzly as your primary target? Still going .223 and 77 tmks?

No hesitation.

Last year I had a juvenile boar grizzly come into camp wanting to eat my tagged sheep. As a bowhunter, I know in a situation like that you’re just thankful to have a rifle and not a bow! Does dangerous critters roaming around your camp, change your rifle selection? I’m guessing not, since a lot of you guys are reporting from Idaho and Montana. But traditionally, this is the primary reason guides and outfitters recommend 30 cals in the north country.

If I were given the task of exterminating an entire region of grizzlies say, it would specifically be an AR15 with 77gr TMK’s.

This thread is really putting a damper on my justification for my “well thought out” and nostalgic rifle collection!

Nah. Those are cool too.

 

[dreamingWest]

Hard to get inspired about my new stainless 338 now!

So out of curiosity, say you're going on an grizzly/moose combo (with Canada regs) with a stated .257 minimum. I'm guessing, based on 89 pages, are you taking 6.5CM with 143 eldx?

 

[Deywalker]

To anyone who has experience with both, how would you compare the terminal performance of something like a 62gr fusion/gold dot, and a foster slug. A while ago I was discussing .223 for hunting and got the typical "I wouldn't trust it for anything other than small deer out to 100 yards, and I'd at least want a slug for bear" response. Which made me wonder, assuming the shot was within 100 yards, given the expansion and much higher impact velocity that will have a TC that leaves permanent damage, would the .223 fusions/gold dots leave a better wound track?

 

[FLS]

Most of the deer I’ve shot with slugs ran a few yards and keeled over when hit in the vitals. Big holes because it’s a big projectile. Expansion / damage depends on slug construction. Sabot/ copper slugs usually exited, fosters didn’t.
Before TMKs were even a twinkle in the engineers eye, I shot a lot of deer with Winchester 64 grain power points out of a 223. At the time that was the heaviest bullet I could find that shot well out out of a 12 twist BDL. Results were the same. Shot in the vitals, they ran just a little ways then died. Rarely got an exit and everything in front of the diaphragm was damaged. I imagine the fusion would work the similarly. Tougher bullet might exit.

 

[DJL2]

Hard to get inspired about my new stainless 338 now!

So out of curiosity, say you're going on an grizzly/moose combo (with Canada regs) with a stated .257 minimum. I'm guessing, based on 89 pages, are you taking 6.5CM with 143 eldx?

See the 6.5 CM with short barrel thread - Form recommended the 130 TMK or ELD-M based on impact velocity at his typical hunting ranges. The 140s are worth it if you plan to shoot past 600 yds.

 

[260madman]

Hard to get inspired about my new stainless 338 now!

So out of curiosity, say you're going on an grizzly/moose combo (with Canada regs) with a stated .257 minimum. I'm guessing, based on 89 pages, are you taking 6.5CM with 143 eldx?

Rebarrel to 22CM and stamp barrel 6.5CM. Neck down 6.5 CM brass to 22. Sling 77 TMKs.

Hypothetically of course. Wouldn’t want to suggest breaking the rules.

 

[Formidilosus]

Hard to get inspired about my new stainless 338 now!

So out of curiosity, say you're going on an grizzly/moose combo (with Canada regs) with a stated .257 minimum. I'm guessing, based on 89 pages, are you taking 6.5CM with 143 eldx?

If not the route of 260madman, yes it would probably be a 6.5CM or similar as they’re aren’t that many good 25cal bullets.

 

[dreamingWest]

Ha. A rebarrel would likely be more economical than boomer ammo if I wasn't already handloading the big guns.

I have a .260 but it's a heavy SOB. I was shooting it suppressed this weekend testing some factory Black Hills ammo. Such a pleasure to shoot.

No, my beloved 30-06 Fieldcraft will be the audible for this hunt if I don't take the 338. The 338 is plenty accurate and a very nice rifle. It just seems silly after reading this thread.

 

[Drenalin]

FYI there’s a Fieldcraft in 5.56 on GB right now. Close to the Holy Grail for someone, I would think.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Ok so I’ve read most of this. Between losing my page coming back and guessing and scrolling passed the “can’t be done” fudds bickering I’m sure I’ve missed some stuff.

I’ve killed a good bit of shit up to deer sized game with 223 but nothing with TMK’s. I’ve shot deer and hogs with 55gr SP as well as a few Barnes bullets and they all worked well but what I saw wound channel wise with the SP’s I wouldn’t choose it for elk, maybe the Barnes though.

I’m seriously interested in just having one rifle to do it all and keep shit simple. So is anyone doing this with a 16” AR-15? I’m definitely interested in a elk hunt at some point and maybe moose. Has anyone killed a bull elk with this bullet out of a 16” AR-15?

 

[Fatcamp]

Ok so I’ve read most of this. Between losing my page coming back and guessing and scrolling passed the “can’t be done” fudds bickering I’m sure I’ve missed some stuff.

I’ve killed a good bit of shit up to deer sized game with 223 but nothing with TMK’s. I’ve shot deer and hogs with 55gr SP as well as a few Barnes bullets and they all worked well but what I saw wound channel wise with the SP’s I wouldn’t choose it for elk, maybe the Barnes though.

I’m seriously interested in just having one rifle to do it all and keep shit simple. So is anyone doing this with a 16” AR-15? I’m definitely interested in a elk hunt at some point and maybe moose. Has anyone killed a bull elk with this bullet out of a 16” AR-15?

I'm moving in that direction. I have a 3-9 and a pretty lightweight 16" AR. Got powder, primers, and 100 TMK's.

 

[260madman]

Ok so I’ve read most of this. Between losing my page coming back and guessing and scrolling passed the “can’t be done” fudds bickering I’m sure I’ve missed some stuff.

I’ve killed a good bit of shit up to deer sized game with 223 but nothing with TMK’s. I’ve shot deer and hogs with 55gr SP as well as a few Barnes bullets and they all worked well but what I saw wound channel wise with the SP’s I wouldn’t choose it for elk, maybe the Barnes though.

I’m seriously interested in just having one rifle to do it all and keep shit simple. So is anyone doing this with a 16” AR-15? I’m definitely interested in a elk hunt at some point and maybe moose. Has anyone killed a bull elk with this bullet out of a 16” AR-15?

One moose killed with a bolt gun in this thread. There’s guys that have used 60gr Vmax and NBTs from ARs for elk. My daughter uses a 16“ AR for deer and shot her buck at 237 through the shoulder and caught in the hide on the offside and it was dead in about 30-35 yards. I shot a doe through the slats (complete pass through and a nice blood trail) with my 18”AR at 320 yards and died at the same spot, 30-35 yards after hit, as her buck. Elk? I’d give it a whirl.

Im actually surprised to see you over here.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

One moose killed with a bolt gun in this thread. There’s guys that have used 60gr Vmax and NBTs from ARs for elk. My daughter uses a 16“ AR for deer and shot her buck at 237 through the shoulder and caught in the hide on the offside and it was dead in about 30-35 yards. I shot a doe through the slats (complete pass through and a nice blood trail) with my 18”AR at 320 yards and died at the same spot, 30-35 yards after hit, as her buck. Elk? I’d give it a whirl.

Im actually surprised to see you over here.

All good info. 77gr TMK I’m assuming? Do you know your MV with both setups by chance? Pass through on deer is pretty impressive for a non neck or head shot.

I know I can get at least 2750 with XBR and 2900 is probably doable. 2750 would keep it over 2000 to just under 400 yards which seems to the the magic number that just about any bullet that’s expanding will work to at a minimum.

In reality I’ll probably wait to load TMK’s until I would actually be pursuing elk. I just got a case of Federal LE 55gr SP and 2 cases of Federal LE 55gr SGK delivered that I’m planning on using on critters up to deer since I know they work.

 

[260madman]

Yes TMKs. No I haven’t chronoed them. I take all my shooting crap camping and never take the chrono for some reason. I should probably do that soon.

You won’t hit 2900 from a 16” AR. 23.4gr XBR seems to get 2700fps from 18” ARs from what I remember reading. I load 23.7gr.

 

[chicoredneck]

I use an 18” AR15 shooting Hornady 75gr HPBT. I have no issues with the combo killing deer and antelope. Terminal results are similar to a Berger VLD. Seems to make more sense to me to run an AR15 in a .223 than a bolt gun as it’s more versatile.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Yes TMKs. No I haven’t chronoed them. I take all my shooting crap camping and never take the chrono for some reason. I should probably do that soon.

You won’t hit 2900 from a 16” AR. 23.4gr XBR seems to get 2700fps from 18” ARs from what I remember reading. I load 23.7gr.

Do these run a lot slower than 77gr SMK’s or something? I’ve gotten over 2900 with them and XBR. My last 18” SPR I got well over 2700 with varget which is pretty slow in an AR with that barrel length. Perhaps the increased seating depth just doesn’t allow it.