.223 for bear, deer, elk and moose.

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Mar 28, 2020
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But... But...
My daddy never used one...
Just as well there was no internet when the 30/06 first came out, all the fudds of the day would be crying in their beer that you can’t kill anything with a puny .30 cal
 
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There is not a single NA game animal I would even remotely hesitate to kill at will with the 223/77tmk combo at 450’ish yards and under.
That's pretty darned remarkable. What would you estimate to be the sample size of game animals you have seen hit with 77TMK? Any danger of driving it too fast with a faster .22 ceneterfire? I am on the hunt for a fast twist 22-250 right now.
 

Formidilosus

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That's pretty darned remarkable. What would you estimate to be the sample size of game animals you have seen hit with 77TMK? Any danger of driving it too fast with a faster .22 ceneterfire? I am on the hunt for a fast twist 22-250 right now.

From antelope to moose- over 200.

Impact velocities above 3k’ish will drop penetration. Really only will come into play at close range on really large game and leg bones. A moose humerus for instance. Other than that they do well from 22-250’s and 22 Creedmoors, etc. Though not as well as a 95gr would…
 
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I still don't like the idea of eating lead shrapnel. What needs to change with a copper bullet to replicate the TMK? I hear the Hammer Absolute's are achieving some ridiculous speeds out of guys hand loads, and I believe they are designed to shed petals., as well as being softer copper. What construction change/caliber bump does it take to match the TMK performance with minimal recoil gains?

I know my 30-06AI achieves great death and destruction capability with a 168 gr TTSX, but I also have seen the slower killing that comes with a one inch hole through the lungs vs. something like a Hornady SST. Lets just say you step from the .223 to a .243 or a .257 Roberts. Can those push copper fast enough to mimic the .223/TMK combo if the copper bullet were designed to be more frangible?
 

Formidilosus

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I still don't like the idea of eating lead shrapnel.

Stop buying into propaganda. Lead is not digested and absorbed as the narrative goes.


Lets just say you step from the .223 to a .243 or a .257 Roberts. Can those push copper fast enough to mimic the .223/TMK combo if the copper bullet were designed to be more frangible?

No, here is not a copper projectile that will behave as a fragmenting lead bullet- at any caliber or grain weight.
 
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I'd greatly appreciate sources for this.
Also, I didn't mean that to sound belligerent, sorry. I have a great deal of respect for your knowledge and insight, as well as a love for bang flop terminal performance on game.

FWIW, here's all I've been able to find on the topic so far:

While promising, this research does not exactly make it clear that any old meal will drastically reduce lead absorption in the body.
 
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jmsdad

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May 10, 2014
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Taking this to Wyoming next weekend for antelope. Took the .260CTR barrel off and screw this 22-250 take-off barrel on. Easy load workup with the 77gr TMKs--going with the RL16 load. Athlon Helos scope arrived yesterday and need to zero in.



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Nomosendero

Lil-Rokslider
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Apr 21, 2021
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I'd greatly appreciate sources for this.
My poop
Just kidding of course. Most of the time I lung them so lead is a non issue for those and if I do hit a shoulder, I process my own meat and watch for that. So, in 50 years and animals in the 3 digits it has not been a big deal.
 
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BigNate

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Do you understand the differences between lead acetate? There are even several variations of it and none are the compound used in making bullets.
Also, I didn't mean that to sound belligerent, sorry. I have a great deal of respect for your knowledge and insight, as well as a love for bang flop terminal performance on game.

FWIW, here's all I've been able to find on the topic so far:

While promising, this research does not exactly make it clear that any old meal will drastically reduce lead absorption in the body.
 
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Do you understand the differences between lead acetate? There are even several variations of it and none are the compound used in making bullets.
I'm not an idiot, if that's what you're saying. What I was getting at is that I can't find any study that gives me the warm fuzzies about eating lead bullet fragments. The study I posted above is as close to supportive as I could find. Arguing about which formulation of lead is used in a study doesn't convince me. The absence of a smoking gun doesn't placate my common sense and intuition (not saying those are always right, but in the absence of certainty, I tend to use caution).

I haven't managed to find something conclusive in Form's old posts yet, but I will freely admit to giving up on scrolling after 7-8 pages of his posts. I'm comfortably in the undecided camp, and the research papers I've found are not complete, nor conclusive.
 

Tod osier

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Sep 11, 2015
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Do you understand the differences between lead acetate? There are even several variations of it and none are the compound used in making bullets.

And of course you understand that when calling someone's understanding of chemistry it looks pretty funny when you call lead metal (the form of lead used in a bullet) a chemical "compound", which it is not.
 

Hthunter

FNG
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Aug 2, 2021
Messages
51
Sorry to divert away from lead acetate/chemistry/copper/etc 😂. But I have 62 gr federal fusions and 75gr eldm. I plan on using these on SE whitetail and range practice. Which would be better for Whitetail deer hunting? I know 77 TMKs would be better but that’s not an option for me at the moment.
 

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