357 vs. 9mm for hiking Grizz country

Moserkr

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Had a stare down two weeks ago at 30’ with a very large black bear that was eating my trash. The 9mm in my hand felt very small at the time.
 

FLH

Lil-Rokslider
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Sep 6, 2019
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Disclaimer: I've never hunted in grizzly territory and never seen a grizzly in person. I've hunted and backpack camped in New England black bear territory and seen a few bears in my time in the woods. Never any negative encounters with them.

H O W E V E R.....

In the early 2000's I was actively researching moving to Alaska. I browsed Alaska's OTC (over the counter) land sales. Also the state's land auctions. Talked to realtors. Haunted the Alaska forum on Outdoors Directory, and communicated via email with Alaska residents.

Grizzly bear defense was at times a topic, often deeply discussed. Here's what I took away from those conversations, regarding handguns for grizzly defense.

1. The only sure way to stop a grizzly is a shot to the brain or spine (central nervous system) with a large enough caliber packing enough energy. "Large enough caliber" starts with .44 magnum, which even Alaskans say is hardly enough.

2. A shot that breaks a shoulder or leg may also stop or slow down a charging bear. This doesn't mean you won't get mauled. "MAY STOP/SLOW DOWN" being the operative phrase.

3. Most persons in these encounters will be lucky if they even place a shot on the bear's body, let alone his brain, spine, or shoulder. One or a few guys on this very thread said their hands were shaking so badly they weren't sure they could hit the bear.

4. Many if not most bear attacks occur without warning from under 50 yards away. At 30 mph the bear's on you before you can draw your weapon, present the weapon, and fire. In these cases most victims are mauled. Some are killed.

5. Even when the charge starts farther away and gives you time to draw and aim, it's nearly impossible to get a brain hit on a bear's bobbing head going 30 mph. In other words, a one shot stop (CNS kill shot) will happen mostly (if not always) by luck.

If you can pump enough rounds into the beast you may slow or kill it, but we've all seen the vids of bears taking 3 or 4 RIFLE hits from hunters who had time to get into position and aim before firing. If these guys with time to aim, who put multiple rifle rounds into a bear's body, haven't killed the bear with those shots, how will I (you) kill a bear when I get only 2 hits on it's charging body at 60 yards (1st shot) and 20 yards (2nd shot) with a 9mm or .357 handgun?

My Conclusions, For Myself

1. Most of the Alaskans I talked to said a large enough handgun caliber starts at .44 mag. However, that's bare minimum (no pun intended) and most times requires CNS hit for one shot stop. It's true the .44 mag has killed grizzly with multiple body shots, but in some cases the shooters have still been mauled or, in cases of no mauling, the shooter had time to fire multiple shots, striking the bear with each shot.

2. If I ever move to, hunt, backpack, or otherwise step foot in the Alaskan bush, I'll be carrying two bear defense weapons:

a) An 8 3/8" barreled S&W .500 Magnum. And I'll have practiced hard and long with it; from overcoming flinch, to keeping both my old eyes open, to follow up shots, to moving targets.

b) Bear spray. Yes. Bear spray. I've read enough and talked to one person who repelled a charge with spray. I've read, however, that spray doesn't necessarily stop an attack in progress. That's why a firearm is (to me) absolutely necessary besides just spray. Wind conditions are another reason to carry a gun instead of just spray.


Now, between spray and gun, who knows what I'd draw first if ever in the nightmare of a grizzly charge. Spray sounds good sitting at this keyboard, having read the spray success stories and talking to that one guy who used spray. But nothing beats the feel of a powerful handgun that you know you can shoot well gripped tight when trouble appears.

3. I condition one carried a 1911 for over 40 years. As well as Colt 10mm and G19. While some bears have been killed with 9mm, I'd never carry a .45 ACP, .357, 9mm, or 10mm for grizzly defense if I had other choices. Here's why. Humans can survive multiple hits (non CNS) of those calibers. Putting three to thirteen of those slugs into a charging bear is only gonna piss him off more than he already is; and payback's gonna be severe when he finally reaches you.

Suggestion To OP

Go to the Alaska forum on Outdoors Directory and ask the guys living in Alaska if they'd carry a .357 or 9mm for grizz protection.

Then research "dangerous game handgun cartridges" to see what the .460 Linebaugh, .475/.480 Ruger, .500 Linebaugh, and .500 S&W magnum have taken as big game.

Post Script

I never moved to Alaska. I continued operating my business into the late 2000's. Then, in 2019 while I was reacquainting myself with a move to Alaska, my mother had a severe stroke which paralyzed her. I had to put her in a nursing home, sell her home, and liquidate everything she ever owned.

As the only son it's my responsibility to watch over her and the d@mn nursing home. Not sure I could ever enjoy the wilds of Alaska and my hard earned retirement knowing there's no one at home watching out for my 92 year old mother.

Life happens. Then we face our Maker. It's more important to get right with Him than move to (fill in the blank).
 
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FLH

Lil-Rokslider
Joined
Sep 6, 2019
Messages
118
Cheek shot by S&W .460 magnum kills grizzly 12 feet away (2018):

List of handgun calibers that stopped black, grizzly bear attacks. Very interesting:
 

Wrench

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WA
Can you shoot the double action quickly AND accurately? Most revolver guys practice from single action which is not how defensive shooting will evolve.

Fwiw, I have killed a bear just feet away using a 10mm and I carry a 9mm with 147berrys hybrids when archery hunting in griz country. My shot splits are better, I am more accurate and if I need to signal, I have 16 rounds.

I hunt with revolvers, but choose autos for defensive situations.
 

wyosam

WKR
Joined
Aug 5, 2019
Messages
982
Disclaimer: I've never hunted in grizzly territory and never seen a grizzly in person. I've hunted and backpack camped in New England black bear territory and seen a few bears in my time in the woods. Never any negative encounters with them.

H O W E V E R.....

In the early 2000's I was actively researching moving to Alaska. I browsed Alaska's OTC (over the counter) land sales. Also the state's land auctions. Talked to realtors. Haunted the Alaska forum on Outdoors Directory, and communicated via email with Alaska residents.

Grizzly bear defense was at times a topic, often deeply discussed. Here's what I took away from those conversations, regarding handguns for grizzly defense.

1. The only sure way to stop a grizzly is a shot to the brain or spine (central nervous system) with a large enough caliber packing enough energy. "Large enough caliber" starts with .44 magnum, which even Alaskans say is hardly enough.

2. A shot that breaks a shoulder or leg may also stop or slow down a charging bear. This doesn't mean you won't get mauled. "MAY STOP/SLOW DOWN" being the operative phrase.

3. Most persons in these encounters will be lucky if they even place a shot on the bear's body, let alone his brain, spine, or shoulder. One or a few guys on this very thread said their hands were shaking so badly they weren't sure they could hit the bear.

4. Many if not most bear attacks occur without warning from under 50 yards away. At 30 mph the bear's on you before you can draw your weapon, present the weapon, and fire. In these cases most victims are mauled. Some are killed.

5. Even when the charge starts farther away and gives you time to draw and aim, it's nearly impossible to get a brain hit on a bobbing bear's head going 30 mph. In other words, a one shot stop (CNS kill shot) will happen mostly (if not always) by luck.

If you can pump enough rounds into the beast you may slow or kill it, but we've all seen the vids of bears taking 3 or 4 RIFLE hits from hunters who had time to get into position and aim before firing. If these guys with time to aim, who put multiple RIFLE rounds into a bear's body, haven't killed the bear with those shots, how will I (you) kill a bear when I get only 2 hits on it's charging body at 60 yards (1st shot) and 20 yards (2nd shot) with a 9mm or .357 handgun?

My Conclusions, For Myself

1. Most of the Alaskans I talked to said a large enough handgun caliber starts at .44 mag. However, that's bare minimum (no pun intended) and requires CNS hit to be effective. Any charging, angry grizz hit in any non-lethal body area with .44 mag rounds will chew your pistol hand off when he/she knocks you down.

2. If I ever move, hunt, backpack, or otherwise step foot in the Alaskan bush, I'll be carrying two bear defense weapons:

a) An 8 3/8" barreled S&W .500 Magnum. And I'll have practiced hard and long with it; from overcoming flinch, to keeping both my old eyes open, to follow up shots, to moving targets.

b) Bear spray. Yes. Bear spray. I've read enough and talked to one person who repelled a charge with spray. I've read, however, that spray doesn't necessarily stop an attack in progress. That's why a firearm is (to me) absolutely necessary besides just spray. Wind conditions are another reason to carry a gun instead of just spray.

Now, between spray and gun, who knows what I'd draw first if ever in the nightmare of a grizzly charge. Spray sounds good sitting at this keyboard, having read the spray success stories and talking to that one guy who used spray. But nothing beats the feel of a powerful handgun that you know you can shoot well gripped tight when trouble appears.

3. I condition one carried a 1911 for over 40 years. As well as Colt 10mm and G19. While a few people have indeed killed grizzly with a 9mm, I'd never carry a .45 ACP, .357, 9mm, or 10mm for grizzly defense if I had other choices instead. Here's why. Humans can survive multiple hits (non CNS) of those calibers. Putting three to thirteen of those slugs into a charging bear is only gonna piss him off more than he already is; and payback's gonna be severe when he finally reaches you.

Suggestion To OP

Go to the Alaska forum on Outdoors Directory and ask the guys living in Alaska if they'd carry a .357 or 9mm for grizz protection.

Then research "dangerous game handgun cartridges" to see what the .460 Linebaugh, .475/.480 Ruger, .500 Linebaugh, and .500 S&W magnum have taken as big game.

Post Script

I never moved to Alaska. I continued operating my business into the late 2000's. Then, in 2019 while I was reacquainting myself with a move to Alaska, my mother had a severe stroke which paralyzed her. I had to put her in a nursing home, sell her home, and liquidate everything she ever owned.

As the only son it's my responsibility to watch over her and the d@mn nursing home. Not sure I could ever enjoy the wilds of Alaska and my hard earned retirement knowing there's no one at home watching out for my 92 year old mother.

Life happens. Then we face our Maker. It's more important to get right with Him than move to (fill in the blank).

Not consistent with what I see here in Alaska. The vast majority seem to carry a g20. There are certainly those who say you need much more, but I rarely see them at the range.


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FLH

Lil-Rokslider
Joined
Sep 6, 2019
Messages
118
Carrying a particular firearm, shooting that firearm at a range, and killing a grizzly with that firearm are three different things.

How many guys do you know who killed a grizzly with their G20?
 

FLH

Lil-Rokslider
Joined
Sep 6, 2019
Messages
118
Can you shoot the double action quickly AND accurately? Most revolver guys practice from single action which is not how defensive shooting will evolve.

Fwiw, I have killed a bear just feet away using a 10mm and I carry a 9mm with 147berrys hybrids when archery hunting in griz country. My shot splits are better, I am more accurate and if I need to signal, I have 16 rounds.

I hunt with revolvers, but choose autos for defensive situations.
Read my post again. I flat out said I'd need to practice with a S&W .500 magnum.

Now, I can shoot my 6" S&W 629-1 (.44 mag) fast enough I occasionally used it for plate shoots only 5 years ago.

I can shoot a .500 S&W half as fast as the 629-1, and about as accurate, too. But, again, I'd need practice, practice, practice with a .500 mag.

I'm much faster, accurate with my early 1990's vintage ParaOrdnance 1911's (P12, P13, and P14) than any revolver. Carried, competed, and used a 1911 since the mid 70s.

Black or grizz with the 10 mm? Was it charging you or did it not see you when you fired?

Not to minimize your kill or skill, but there's a huge difference between killing a bear who doesn't know you're there, and where you can take your time to aim.....and killing a bear that's charging you out of nowhere, intending to kill you, with little or no time to aim for kill zone.
 

cuttingedge

Lil-Rokslider
Joined
Jun 28, 2018
Messages
216
My hunting partner carries a 38 snub nose. I offered to let him carry one of my 10 mils. He said, "38 is enough. I'm just gonna shoot you in the knee and run like hell!"

What a great friend.

I carry a 10mm whenever I am on or off of the beaten path.
 

FLH

Lil-Rokslider
Joined
Sep 6, 2019
Messages
118
"I'd never carry a 9mm for bear defense. Black or otherwise."
---------------------------------------​

Me neither. But I won't criticize someone who does. They might not have anything else to carry or can't afford something bigger. We're all here for love of outdoors and hunting.

Now, if I could get a 5 shot (4 + 1) semi-auto .416 Rigby with 17" barrel at about 8 lbs....HA!....at least a body shot might, might, stop the forward momentum long enough for an aimed follow up shot.

Or if I could afford and carry a select fire Stoner with 100 round belt....
 

FLH

Lil-Rokslider
Joined
Sep 6, 2019
Messages
118
My hunting partner carries a 38 snub nose. I offered to let him carry one of my 10 mils. He said, "38 is enough. I'm just gonna shoot you in the knee and run like hell!"

What a great friend.

I carry a 10mm whenever I am on or off of the beaten path.
Sold a Colt 10m in the late 1990's. What a mistake!
 

grfox92

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NW WY
The notion that you will be able to effectively use your hunting rifle as your only means of protection in a mix up with a grizzly is comical. Could you use it? Maybe. But maybe not.

How often do you strap your rifle to your pack? When you drop your pack to get out a snack or some water is your rifle still in your hands? Have you ever walked a few feet away from your pack and your rifle to glass something or get a better vantage?

Unless you will never put your rifle down and always have it on your person, The only acceptable means of protection when in grizzly country is bear spray and a pistol on your chest. It never comes off. Weather your taking a dump, hiking with your rifle on your pack or whatever, that pistol is right where you need it.

I also always have bear spray on my bino harness, frequently taking note of what the wind is doing. Most of the time here in WY you can't use spray, it's just too windy. If it was calm with little to no wind, I would go for the spray before going for the pistol.

Maybe my thought process is skewed because of where I live and hunt. Most guys who hunt "grizzly country" aren't hunting with anywhere near the densities where I'm at. You could hunt for a few years in most grizz country and never see a bear. For reference, I've been charged 2 years in a row and seen 10 bears in the last 2 years. Someone gets torn up every single year around here. Sometimes more then 1 attack per year.

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FLH

Lil-Rokslider
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Messages
118
Are you doing ok man? Seriously I mean it.

My post had absolutely nothing to do with your post. Literally nothing. I never referenced you, quoted you, or even read your post. I skimmed right over it.

Friend, no need to cover up. Three elements show your post was directly aimed at me:

(1) It was the first response to my post

(2) It plainly referenced me by saying "you" nine times, in context of bear defense. You wrote:

- The notion that you will be able to effectively use your hunting rifle in a mix up with a grizzly is comical. Could you use it?

- How often do you strap your rifle to your pack? When you drop your pack to get out a snack or some water is
your rifle still in your hands? Have you ever walked a few feet away from your pack and your rifle to glass something or get a better vantage?

- Unless you will never put your rifle down and always have it on your person,...


(3) Your reference to a rifle was clearly in response to my joke about a 17" barrel .416 Rigby.

Saying you weren't talking directly to me is just silly. You were responding directly to me. You were critical and judgmental towards what I said. Your words deserved a defensive response. I provided that response, no different than I would in any other situation; from bar room to board room.

Now we're "even". It's water under the bridge far as I'm concerned. If you want it to be also, fine. If not, fine.

=============================

Forgetting all that, I have to say the bear spray and chest rig are 110% spot on. Exactly what I'd do if I were wanting bear protection. There used to be a guy in Alaska who crafted leather chest rigs for big frame revolvers. That was, I guess, 20 or more years ago I first saw them.

If you can share any specifics on the WY bear attacks, please do. Such as, did the attack happen to solo hunter or group of hunters? Did the attack happen when hunter was dressing the kill? What distance did the attack start at?

These things all provide valuable preventative information to those who've never seen grizz or hunted their territory. One guy in MT told me going through heavy brush was like walking point.

Regards.....
 
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Beendare

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Rifle and a pistol…nope…thats like belt and suspenders

Ammo is the game changer here…specifically hard cast. guys have dropped big bears with 9mm and hardcast.

Bowhunting, I carry a 9mm in black bear country and a 10mm in Brown and G Bear country as I practice regularly with those.
 

Rich M

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Why do posts always turn into pissing matches? Folks are allowed to have their opinions.

If choosing between 9mm or 357 mag id probably go w the 357 mag and the new copper bullets they have. Would use the same copper bullets in the 9mm too.

Im not going into grizzly territory without a dog and a macho tough guy who’s been there before.
 

jimh406

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Thread fighting aside ...

As others have noted, either "can" work. Best is to not have to shoot. You'll never know if you are dealing with a highly motivated bear until it happens. Like most animals, they can travel a long way mortally wounded.

Obviously, some rounds are more powerful, but that won't help if you miss.

Hard Cast used to be the way to go. However, companies like Underwood are recommending their solid copper penetrators as well now.
 

grfox92

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I deleted all my replies to FLH. I don't argue with strangers on the internet and I'm certainly not going to do it on RS. Let's get back to the topic.

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z987k

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Read my post again. I flat out said I'd need to practice with a S&W .500 magnum.

Now, I can shoot my 6" S&W 629-1 (.44 mag) fast enough I occasionally used it for plate shoots only 5 years ago.

I can shoot a .500 S&W half as fast as the 629-1, and about as accurate, too. But, again, I'd need practice, practice, practice with a .500 mag.

I'm much faster, accurate with my early 1990's vintage ParaOrdnance 1911's (P12, P13, and P14) than any revolver. Carried, competed, and used a 1911 since the mid 70s.

Black or grizz with the 10 mm? Was it charging you or did it not see you when you fired?

Not to minimize your kill or skill, but there's a huge difference between killing a bear who doesn't know you're there, and where you can take your time to aim.....and killing a bear that's charging you out of nowhere, intending to kill you, with little or no time to aim for kill zone.
You'll carry that 500 for a little while. Then you'll realize you're packing a boat anchor for an extremely unlikely and buy something lighter.
 

grfox92

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Thread fighting aside ...

As others have noted, either "can" work. Best is to not have to shoot. You'll never know if you are dealing with a highly motivated bear until it happens. Like most animals, they can travel a long way mortally wounded.

Obviously, some rounds are more powerful, but that won't help if you miss.

Hard Cast used to be the way to go. However, companies like Underwood are recommending their solid copper penetrators as well now.
Regarding your comment of "best is to not have to shoot."

Both of my charges were stopped by SCREAMING at the bear and making myself big and seen, waving my arms over my head while screaming at the top of lungs.

First charge started at 100 yards and spun the bear and her 3 cubs at 40 yards. Second charge, we have no idea where it started we just saw the bear running full speed at 80 yards, he spun at 30 yards before any shooting.

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wyosam

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Carrying a particular firearm, shooting that firearm at a range, and killing a grizzly with that firearm are three different things.

How many guys do you know who killed a grizzly with their G20?

Several. And several with 9mm as well. My point about the range is not seeing people practicing with high power revolvers, and a practiced anything is more useful than an unpracticed cannon.


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